Tree of Savior Forum

This will answer (almost) all of your questions about the STR vs DEX debate (pvp not included)

Hello everyone.

This is a continuation of my previous thread.
A THEORETICAL STR vs DEX analysis for a level 280 character

Edit: The successor of this thread is A New and Better STR vs DEX answer machine though this thread works just as well.

That is now irrelevant.

I have made a new spreadsheet that contains (almost) every value a skill can have for their skill attack vs crit rate investment from stats. This contains (almost) everything everyone wanted to know, but no one wanted to do.

"This is a cleaner version of the same spreadsheet that is only for downloading. Please also rename it. "

Info for level 280 capThe reason why I made a new thread for this is because it contains information that vastly differs from what I did previously. I believe it deserves it's own thread.

In it contains a lot of information that you can get from it if you take the time to look at it deeply

(OLD DO NOT USE) I used my damage calculator to find my numbers. If you want you can recreate what I did with it, if you want even more confirmation. Here->

OLD INFO. Please just use the comparison spreadsheet for a more accurate test.-This test used a level 280 character, rank 7, with 20 bonus stat points. -The opposing monster is a level 285 boss with 457 defense and 120 crit resist. -All level 285 bosses have 457, and their crit resist varies from 44~182 with the average being 120.

-Uniformly, 10% crit rate is straight up bad, so don’t do it.
-Statting for crit rate will never benefit anyone who does not have insane attack damage. The only exception to this is if you already have crit rate from other sources.
-Archers naturally have 10% more crit rate than Swordsman.
-This test DOES NOT include buffs or debuffs. In the case of buffs or debuffs, I would rather consider them as a bonus than being mandatory.
-My threshold numbers come after defense calculations. If you want to know -the number without factoring defense, subtract 457 from them.

Total attack is: (Your base attack + weapon attack + skill attack) * T0 modifier.

-This is NOT a “Do this kind of build for whatever” OR “This is the best build for so and so” OR “This is the ideal crit rate” or anything like it.
-This is a list of what crit rate does for varying amounts of total attack a person can have.

-I am not missing any important data.

-All information I’m giving below can be found in the tests.


Test 1: No gear influence, 100 attack weapon.

need at least 4286 total attack for archers to start seeing a benefit for investing into crit rate
need at least 5401 total attack for swordsman to start seeing a benefit for investing into crit rate. Must be pure DEX build however.

Archer benefits from going pure STR more than investing in DEX until they can reach a total attack of 4286.
Meeting that damage requirement is actually very easy for Archers that are Cannoneers or Musketeers.
For other class branches of Archer, it is much harder to reach this requirement.

Swordsman benefit from going pure STR more than investing into any DEX regardless.

Until they reach a total attack of 5401, getting crit rate will not improve dps.
In this case, you have to be pure DEX to even get a benefit from critical hits.
There are only two skills that actually have a base damage of over 4000. They belong to Shinobi and Dragoon, but they have long cooldowns.
It may be easier to reach the damage requirement using certain warrior buffs that increase attack.

Swordsman can instead opt to achieve 5957 total attack. This will get rid of a pure DEX build instead it becomes a 53:246 STR:DEX ratio. However, it is less damage than a pure DEX build…

Test 2: No gear influence, 500 weapon attack (essentially a +0 Lolopanther weapon)

Sadly, this does not change anything from the first test. It only serves to further prove what the first test shows.

There is one extremely weird situation about this test however. Look at base damage: 3200 for Archer.
You will see that a pure DEX build is actually less than a pure STR build, but getting 30% crit rate is the highest dps.
The next one, base damage: 3300 for Archer has pure DEX build being higher than pure STR.
The one before, base damage: 3100 for Archer has pure STR being the highest dps

Test 3: Gear influence: 320 crit rate, 320 crit attack. 500 attack weapon (30% crit rate from gear after factoring crit resist)

This is when the interesting things start to show up.

In this test, Archer will have 40% crit rate by default.
Archer needs at least 3937 total attack before DEX investment will show improvement to dps (up to 50% crit rate only).
Archer needs at least 4371 total attack before further DEX investment will show improvement (will work for 50% crit rate and higher).
If increasing total attack pass 4371, increasing crit rate will become more beneficial.
Investing in pure DEX will only benefit Archers once they past 4501 total attack.
It is not until 5799 total attack that a pure DEX build will be the highest dps.

Swordsman will have 30% crit rate by default.
Swordsman needs at least 3559 total attack before DEX investment will show improvement to dps (up to 40% crit rate only).
Swordsman needs at least 3990 total attack before further DEX investment will show more improvements.
A total attack of 4201 is required before a pure DEX build is beneficial.
A total attack of 4959 is required to make every DEX investment beneficial.
It is not until after 6390 total attack that pure DEX will become the highest dps.

End notes:

There is a relationship with crit rate and total attack power tell me if you can also see it.
If you cannot see it, then continue reading.

Until about 3500 total attack, investing into crit rate by stat points WILL decrease dps.
It is only after hitting 3500 total attack and beyond that getting crit rate by stat points will increase dps.

Getting 10% crit rate from stat points is really bad. Only after reaching 3000 total attack will a pure DEX build no longer be the worst, but this doesn't mean it is the best either.

Having gear that gives crit rate lowers the total attack threshold.
The higher the crit rate your gear gives you the lower the total attack threshold is.
Due to having crit rate from gear, the character has more free stat points to work with.
Because of more free stat points, they have extra stat points after getting their ideal crit rate.
This can be put into STR that will further close the gap from a pure STR build because of the higher crit attack.

Having a good amount of crit attack will also lower the total attack threshold, however you are looking at roughly 1000 crit attack.
This is just an estimate. Someone else can find the actual number for every skill damage. (This is literally 10x more work than what this is).

Any other form of bonus damage will not change the total attack threshold because not only will it increase your damage from your crits and any DEX build, but it will also increase the damage a pure STR build does.
Only the bonus damage crit attack will change the total attack threshold.

The more crit rate you get the more crit attack you need to make up the difference

A few questions I know some people will ask.

Q. You said this isn’t a do this and that kind of thing but it does.
A. Actually it’s not. Look at the data and think for yourself for once.

Q. You said you aren’t missing any important data, but a bunch of table values are missing!
A. That is because they aren’t important. Look at the table before the skip and after the skip. Tell me if you see the pattern.

Q. Where is cleric?
A. They are exactly like Swordsman.

Q. What about wizard?
A. They can’t crit.

Q. What about buffs? They make a big impact too you know!
A. I did not factor them because they are inconsistent, and not everyone has access to them.

Q. Then what about debuffs?
A. Same reason as above.

Q. What about the other bonuses from gear?
A. I didn’t bother with them because there is too many variations.

Q. I can’t get 320 crit rate from gear. This is useless!
A. Okay. Read what I said in the end notes.

Q. Aren’t you the guy that did that other thing with monk that I don’t agree with?
A. I sure am.

Q. Okay now do one that actually works for ingame.
A. This does work ingame.

Q. Make one for lower levels!
A. You can do it instead.

Q. You said 40% was the ideal crit rate before. Obviously this proves it wrong.
A. Indeed it does, and I can actually 100% for sure say that 40% crit rate is ideal for Monk. At least for the current meta.

Q. Can you do my build?
A. No.

Q. How did you get these “total attack threshold” numbers?
A. I took the first base damage table that has a damage that was higher than the pure STR damage on it. Added my base attack that goes with the corresponding base damage group. That’s it.

Q. I want to help you.
A. Okay. People want to know INT vs CON, the addition of CON into the STR vs DEX debate, lower levels, higher levels, and pvp. While I do have a general idea of what happens in them, I do not have any concrete proof to prove it.

Q. I found a value wrong, etc.
A. Okay tell me where. I can fix it.

Q. How the h*** did you even get all this information?
A. Simple.

Q. I don’t believe that damage calculator works.
A. You don’t have to.

Q. Why should I believe you, you nobody.
A. You don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to.

Q. I’m going to debate with you and attempt to prove you wrong.
A. Go ahead and try.

Q. You’re an idiot and everything you did is wrong.
A. Then prove me wrong.

Q. This doesn’t work with my build. You’re full of s***!
A. Obviously. This is only the groundwork. Going into specifics requires their own research.

Q. !@%#!#%! #%!%!@ !%# !@! %#!#!%
A. I love you too.

Q: The stat calculator from tosbase says that 299 points into STR means 910 Attack(Swordsman) so you’re basically doing 1010 Attack on the first test or …?
A. Yes, you are correct. the 299 you see is the number of stat points you put in the stat.

Q. What about when we get higher levels?
A. We won’t know until we get there, but killerkonnat has helped me realize that the threshold number WILL increase as level increases.

Q. What about with attributes? When you take those into account do you only need half of the threshold?
A. Sadly, no… Instead, they increase the threshold number by the % increase they give. This applies to T1, T2, T3, and any bonus damage not crit attack as well. It’s better to not factor them in when calculating if your damage passes the threshold number or not.

Q. And the ones that have Attack % and Base Damage? Like Cannon Blast from Cannoner?
A. As long as the total attack is higher then 3500 then they benefit from DEX more.

Q. What about Multi-hit skills?
A. Every hit has to hit above the threshold number before it will benefit from DEX. If you want to factor in the total damage of a multi-hit skill for calculations then you have to multiply the threshold number by the corresponding hit count.

Q. You didn’t consider this and that and that and etc. Your work doesn’t apply anymore.
A. You should read my entire post, take some time to let it be absorbed, and then do YOUR own work for your specific scenario. This isn’t for everything obviously; it is only the very core of dps.

A very good TL;DR from elysium. Click.

[quote=“elysium, post:28, topic:241456, full:true”]
Great work!
Well for those who are too lazy to read, here’s a quick summary:

  1. As the author says, it doesn’t and shouldn’t tell you what STR:DEX ratio to use, but does show the highest damage based on a number of factors. This is because the chart is about the relationship between the two. It shows a trend between str and dex, based on weapon attack levels.

  2. Secondly, there is no optimal STR:DEX ratio that works for every build. The optimal ratio depends on your total attack (base + weap + skill). The general rule is: You must reach a certain minimum attack before crit starts to give returns. But 10% crit is always suboptimal.

  3. You actually save a lot of time if you look at the table. Author has helpfully set out the highest (yellow) and lowest (red) damage, and you can clearly see the patterns

  4. My personal take: Warriors should probably go more STR than DEX because their skill damage isn’t high, and they don’t have natural crit rate boost unlike archers. This means that the minimum attack they need is really high and hard to reach. Burst damage archers like Musketeer and Cannoneer, on the other hand, would benefit greatly from crit since their skills can easily hit the minimum damage requirement.

So I realized after doing this that your STR:DEX ratio isn’t important… at all. What matters more is what crit rate you want.


Any TLDR for it for those in school / work / uni?

Any idea what the minimum amount of dex is for pvp’ing as a str/con character e.g. pelt2>rodel2>fencer2

Hmm… that will actually be kind of hard to do to be honest. I’m not too sure how to make a TL:DR for this.

It’s not exactly a do this and that kind of thing.

I don’t know pvp yet so I can’t actually help you with that. (well damn that is one thing that I forgot to think about. I guess this won’t really answer pvp questions).

edit: Oh I know how to do the TL:DR thing. Open the spoiler and scroll down to the end notes. That’s probably the best TL:DR i can give.

This is some very useful information, saved me a lot of research.
Thanks senpai!

Okay Thanks, I’ll take a better look later in the day.

Information like this is really useful. Have you done something similar for status ailments and the spr stat? What would be a good amount (e.g. like you say 40% Crit rate is optimal.

Btws just a quick question
Does the hypothesis above take into consideration crit resist of enemies when talking into detail as to when a full DEX build will overcome a Full STR build?

Can I say then that for swordman and cleric is better mostly always go full str than spending any dex?

It takes into consideration an average level 285 boss’s crit resistance which is 120, so yes.

You can scroll all the way to the right if you want to find where exactly a pure DEX build beats a pure STR one faster.

Indeed it does… It took me 2 days to create it working on it all day.


That is indeed true… according to what I found at least.

No, I haven’t done anything for status ailments or the spr stat. I have no idea how to go about those.

After reading it still have no idea how much str dex ratio should I go for on my fletcher…

Thanks for your effort! It’s really helpful. Just a typo, it says +100atk where should say 500

Well… it’s only supposed to give you a guideline of what to do. Sorry if it didn’t help you.

Thank you too! I’ll fix it right away.

well its alright mate, I’ll figure it out somehow

Allright how did you make the click sections of your post? This is too good

Also: Bump because good work deserves visibility.

Interesting, but what about the accuracy? Going full STR won’t make you miss all the time?
Sorry if it is a dumb question as I played only as Wiz.

Table at the left side shows you need 888 crit rate to overcome 120 crit res, whereas it should be 788. Good job , tho!

You rock man.
The only step left after this is to ask the ToSbase guy to decode his skill simulator links. Then one could feed a program the link and it would list the str/dex for all of your skills.

Sigh. I do have half of a CS degree…

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which gem for weapon and sub give the most benefit for full CON swordsman?
green for crit rate or red for phys atk?
biggest damage come from cata 3 skills

Prrrobably red? Crit rate has the issue that it has the startup cost of beating crit defense before becoming useful. Crit rate also has the issue of needing a higher base damage to be worthwhile, which a con swordsman won’t have.

Cool beans man :slight_smile: Looks like some really useful info.

The sheet I’ve been working on it set up to automate everything you’ve done by hand (holy cow btw) so it’s easy to swap between which skills are included and what your stats and the enemy’s stats are.

Been working on it for about a week + a bit now. Progress, but it’s not quite done. I’ll be sure to hit you up with a link once it’s closer :D.