Tree of Savior Forum

What Makes a class design good/bad?

Design Breakdown shouldn’t be taken in consideration to help with builds, check disclaimers for more information.

It’s been a while since i started design breakdown as a discussion segment focused on analysing game elements trying to take out how their features and what they imply in the experience and with Re:Build already up it should be expected to have the whole series redone to reflect the new content, however it is also a good opportunity to clarify the basis and add some complementary elements to it.

The main goal of this series is to discuss which elements makes a class design good or bad (and sometimes other game elements) open to everybody, keep in mind that those are arguments are based on how classes presents themselves and how they contribute for the game diversity and some degree of opinion may slide in tho properly warned. Now that the class change system was incorporated every single class discussed will be tested properly taking every single skill in consideration, it may not be enough experience the class at its fullest but will still be an improvement.

With those settle let’s get into the question, what makes a class well designed? There’s no definitive answer for it, in fact to know if a class design is good we need to answer several questions, the less it can answer the worst it is designed.

  • What does it do?
  • How does it do it?
  • Is it useful?
  • Is it unique?
  • Is it healthy to the game?
  • Is it practical?
  • Is it reliable?
  • Can another close class do what it does as well as it at?
  • Does it have weaknesses?
  • Can it be used for other things?
  • Does it relies on other classes to be effective?
  • Does it gives real options on skill distribution?
  • How many ways can it be build efficiently?
  • Does it follows what it establishes?
  • Are it skills useful?
  • Does it allows skill points to be scattered?
  • Does it presents an unique playstyle?

To answer those we can use two elements, there’s also a third one but it’s more into a punctual issue than a fundamental flaw. It is recommended to reach the linked threads in the title as they offer more depth on the design points and associated game elements, but as those can be fairly extensive a shorter version will be provided here.


1) Identity - A small group of traits that molds the class, it’s role and how it develops it - what it does, how it does things and how it feels. This is a gameplay design component that helps classes to have unique value to the game regardless of their power state, it gives them strengths and weaknesses. An identity has to be unique and easy to explain with few words and if a player can understand how it ties skills the class is more likely to sustain itself.

The identity role is to ensure a class will be unique and useful, if there’s no reason to take a class it will be ignored. Better numbers or gimmick shouldn’t be the deciding factor on such choice as they contribute to build stagnation which is the complete opposite of what the game tries to achieve. Interesting enough Re:Build made the game more friendly toward hybrid identities as classes can’t be taken midway but can also make these classes to be set as niche transition classes and have no value on their own.

Whenever a solid identity is paired with fitting theme the class will reach a natural conclusion that is easy to understand without the need to play it, some themes can’t fit the identity a class scole or are too big for it and in this case they might make the class feel loose or underwhelming.


2) Structure - If a class is designed to execute a task in a specific way then it needs to offer better tools to do it the further you get into it, that’s the natural way to set up the class experience as you get better at doing what you’re good at. Some classes don’t follow this expected path and deliver a power fantasy instead which can be disappointing for those that wanted to expand their current playstyle. On the practical side it is welcome and can be good for the player experience but this kind of design choice allows classes to reach tools beyond their scope, if a class is designed to deal massive damage to single targets having the last skill work with huge AoE can be enough to dismiss a class that works around that element and negate its value.

To help into the structural check we will use some terms to categorize skills based on what they provide to the class, this is merely to make it easier to associate elements when talking about skill roles in classes.

Lead - A straightforward skill that is completely aligned with the class identity, it’s mean to be taken most of time and may use from overscale to promote itself. This is the kind of skill players should seek when picking a class as it does exactly what is expected to.

Relief - A skill that doesn’t take the identity at all, this is the class thematic catharsis that prevents the class to only perform the traditional way.

Midground - A nice blend of Lead and Relief, it is the kind of skill that pushes players to explore the unconventional routes instead of going for the obvious.

Gimmick - A skill that changes presents something unique or unusual to the game, it may or not be aligned with class identity.

Chain - A skill that doesn’t work on its own, instead it takes a product of one or multiple skills and expands on it. (Ex: Ice Blast, Begone Evil).

Complement - A skill that uses supports the class identity indirectly, it may boost other skills direct or indirectly, apply special effects or work as a setup skill.

Ideally all classes should have the majority of its skills aligned with the identity since it ensures the ability to execute what is designed to do, however it is also important to have some room for exploration as committing too much to an identity can make the skill distribution stale or unbearable.


3) Overscaling - Unlike the previous ones this isn’t a fundamental issue but a problem that some skills have regarding stats and formulas. As a matter of fact certain skills have their leveling components adjusted to force players into dumping all points on it or ignore the skill completely, this kind of binary nature punishes low investment on skills and make the whole point distribution more streamlined. By setting this barrier players will seldom pick skills in intermediate levels unless it run out of points, this is further aggravated by the new SP cost as it punishes any player that decides to get more skills.


Those tools can be quite useful for a consistent class design, it’s possible to identify major issues by running them and see it fails on that category. Anyway, those are my observations on it and i’d be glad to hear what other have to add into the subject, just remember to be nice and don’t take it personal.

Explanation on Final Score Overview

Every class will receive a score from F (lowest) to A (highest) based on different criteria, this is done to get a better understanding of the combined design aspects individually. It is possible to have a class that explores the Theme perfectly and have the Identity to be incomprehensible, tho they will receive an overall score as a full package.

Identity - The idea the class presents and unique value it adds to the game, having few skills that work for it or many that go against it will decrease this score. Keep in mind that the identity is taken based on the skill set and it may be unlikely for a class to have scores lower than D. Skills that present itself consciously with no identity, based on placement and same tier skills, won’t reduce this score.

Theme - The fantasy the class uses to express itself and aesthetics used to execute skills. Overdoing or undergoing a theme will decrease its score as it has to respect the own fantasy rules, there is a margin to explore so extrapolation isn’t detrimental if respectful. Disclaimer - There are too many classes to analyze themes and don’t have the time nor resources to do extensive research, in case of any inaccuracy please address it along with a reliable source and i’ll review the segment and adjust it properly.

Gameplay - How smooth/natural the class feels when be played, how skills interact and improve each other. The amount of skills needed to play the class is also taken in consideration for this grade. Any class that presents an unique and functional playstyle with agency receive a B at least. Positive synergy with other classes will be ignored. Crafting classes will be evaluated based on their nature as they don’t operate as combat classes..

Skill Distribution - How many options are available that presents valid point distribution. Dead skills/points, bad skill scaling, skill underload and overload will decrease this score…


Disclaimers

1 - The reason i started this series is because i haven’t seen no one in forum talking about class design as the usual talk goes into viability, how to make it effective in the current state and what classes have synergy with it. Some do talk about issues and improvements but from the time i’ve been around they all die out as punctual posts or keep on focus on straight up suggestions that present simple fixes which may not work for the long run. I won’t deny that i may not have searched enough as someone could be doing it before me but from what i got it wasn’t the case.

2 - Design Breakdown won’t ever be about how viable a class is or how a skill can be good if you have A or B, it’s about how a class and its skills can sustain relevance in a game that has a class system that allow you to drop classes at 3 different states, there are plenty of guides out there to supply that demand. My goal with this series is to make people question “what’s the role of this class in the game” opposed to “why this class/skill is bad” and also appreciate other elements that aren’t talked about at all such as animations and how class elements connect.

3 - I’m aware those threads can have mistakes on it and that’s due the time available to do each and how much experience i have with those classes, i will try to get the most of the analysed classes by experiencing them in different game modes but i don’t have every single type of weapon in endgame condition in my disposal.

4 - The outro part where i go for “drop a like if you enjoy it and leave a comment” is to engage readers into the discussion as there was one post with polls where people voted but no one commented, if someone doesn’t have anything to say and just agrees with it can just show it by pressing a button, now if instead it disagrees with something i said or the whole picture i have interest on what and why, it’s also to get people to correct me in case i do miss something. There were at least two instances where i changed the breakdown due comments, one was about a gimmick use of Squire’s Base Camp for challenge and the other was another way to view Wizard identity, and that’s the kind of comment that pushes the whole discussion forward.

5 - As discussions are meant to have people to give their thoughts on it makes more sense to have topics that interest them instead of me picking at random, having the option to vote on more than allows it to be fairer as well. For more details you can check this short vid.

6 - Until i get all the previous entries to be fixed this series will have new threads every two weeks, at the start of each new analysis the most recently updated classes will be informed as the ending part will have both planned updates and new coverage…

9 Likes

Links named “Class (Legacy)” haven’t been updated and discuss classes using the rank-circle class system.

Archers (1-7/13)

Class Tree
Archer

Ranger (Legacy)
Hunter (Legacy)
Falconer (Legacy)
Musketeer (Legacy)
Cannoneer (Legacy)
Mergen (Legacy)

Clerics (2-5/17)

Class Tree
Cleric
Priest

Sadhu (Legacy)
Pardoner (Legacy)
Inquisitor (Legacy)

Scout (1-6/12)

Class Tree
Scout

Schwarzer Reiter (Legacy)
Corsair (Legacy)
Shinobi (Legacy)
Squire (Legacy)
Linker (Legacy)

Swordsman (2-7/17)

Class Tree
Swordsman
Doppelsoeldner

Highlander (Legacy)
Barbarian (Legacy)
Fencer (Legacy)
Templar (Legacy)
Matador (Legacy)

Wizards (1-7/17)

Class Tree
Wizard
Onmyoji

Cryomancer (Legacy)
Pyromancer (Legacy)
Psychokino (Legacy)
Alchemist (Legacy)
Rune Caster (Legacy)
Shadowmancer (Legacy)

X (Not Available)
Game Elements (1/X)

Property Attack/Resistance

1 Like

Good design:

Skills that actually do something different and unique which makes them useful.
Examples:
A skill that counters another strong skill in the game.
A skill that brings forth a new combo between two existing classes.
A skill that fills the gap of something that’s missing in the game. (i.e. teleport you around the same map)
A skill that puts you in immersion within your class. (i.e. a frenzy skill that doesn’t allow you to chat in game just because you’re frenzied)

Bad design:

Another dps skill that has slightly flashier effects and competes with the other thousands of dps skills already existing in the game.

4 Likes

For classes in general I think the identity is the key and must be respected and dictates everything else.

Also I agree with what you’ve said about Cohesion; however we do need to assume that, if lower rank classes have lower scaling damage skills % it its going to be, indeed, pretty much useless later on. Like Ranger is before the “rework”. It is not that is a bad class, but its overshadowed by Falconer/BM later on. (Also, which Archer class doesnt get overshadowed by falconer?)

A Good design to solve this flaw is:

a) Give utility to lower rank classes. We got “Tree of Cleric” meme and not Tree of Inquisitor/Plague Doctor anything because Cleric can heal, be “invisible”, increase all skill levels, invulnerable to damage all In a single initial rank. So you can build your build from it, starting from a pretty safe place.

b) Give gimmick interations like what they did with Pyro + Elementalist Meteor to lower classes. That was a right direction towards people picking pyro not only because they want the raw damage it gives early on but to make later rank stronger.

Also, by identity is important to keep track of a specific class weakness. As an example: When you pick cannoneer you assume that you are going to be this giant AoE glass cannon DPSers. It’s pretty acceptable and amazing design, but not if you have other classes doing exactly what you are doing (and more) and moving, while you are standing still being an easy target.

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Cohesion isn’t only a matter of damage. Ice Pike is currently the best CC skill in the game as a rank 2 basic, with…

  • instacast
  • ground aiming
  • screen wide hitbox
  • 100% chance freeze
  • hits all and any kind of mob

Meanwhile Quarrel Shooter throws 5 caltrops at the floor to halt a couple of mobs…

Bring that to Cleric’s thread (IMC will “fix” healing soon tho).

I believe this is one major issue in ToS (i’ll review the text later to emphasize it), some classes either do too much and/or don’t have enough weaknesses.

1 Like
  1. Being just a shop class
    How to fix?
    Provide more skills so u dont waste something as cool with so much potential as “Alchemist” class to turn it into bs, give em support / more Offensive and unique skills so people can decide if they want a cool class or just a merchant or some hybrid

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Add consistency. Games are governed by rules. You can’t have classes popping up that keep breaking those rules

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Yeah, especially Classes like Musketeer don’t really hold true to the Class name and concept, being more of an auto-attack Class rather than a static, slow burst Class the historical counterpart actually was.

Musketeer should have been revamped into being a high burst>slow reload Class,
so you cast a skill and then watch an animation where the Musketeer puts down his Musket, fills in black powder, pumps it down and then adds the new bullet before taking on a shooting pose.

That way Bayonet Thrust and Butt Stroke would’ve been way more valuable.

Also, Prime and Load should’ve been a basic skill of the Musketeer, so you can reload your Musket after shooting. I’d put it at C1 as a 1 point skill (similar to Wugushis Detoxify) and add a C3 attribute so the reloading time is halved from 5 seconds to 2,5 seconds by speeding up the animation.

I’d also change the skill “Snipers Serenity” so the character actually lies down on the ground like a real sniper, becoming immovable. This skill should allow the Musketeer to overcome the damage cap with all skills and always score a critical hit with Snipe, given the Musketeer would have to stand up (animation delay) and reload afterwards anyway.

I’d also change the basic attacks of the Musket to attack with the Bayonet, not to shoot (so basically basic attacks become Bayonet Thrust, subweapon attack Butt Strokes), so you only shoot via skills, similarly to how Cannoneer works outside of Bazooka stance.

By the way, I’d remove the Cannoneer attribute that allows the use of Cannoneer skills during Kneeling Shot and rather give it to Musketeer; it’s wasted on Cannoneer but would be pretty useful on Musketeer, given that Archer C3 could become a potent option for Musketeer rather than Quarrel Shooter to turn him into machine gun man.

This would heavily impact the Classes identity, but it would be more fitting and increase the popularity of Classes that focus on damage over time like Hunter, Wugushi, Sapper in a Musketeer build.

1 Like

That’s an issue with theme and mechanic, they can make base musket speed slower but it doesn’t prevent players to go DEX and speed all the way, in fact i think cannoner being fast feels way weirder. It seems like players don’t enjoy dealing with delays and long animations and IMC is granting their wishes…

I have to disagree on it, the sole reason it became a thing (as well as Grooving Muzzle) is due musketeer horrible synergy over weapon restrictions, that’s a decent hotfix but doesn’t change the fact it lacks early interaction.

Animation wise it’s super weird, you get your rifle, focus for a while and drop it. Now to gameplay, it isn’t the most practical skill and having a huge cast time decreased by level backfires regarding point distribution. It would fit more theme and gameplay if each skill received a 1 to 2s cast time that boost power based on casting time (Acc, CAttk, CRate, Block Pen, PAtk, etc), of course in that case the huge SP drain should be lifted.

That would be super funny tho i don’t think players would enjoy taking an archer class and be prevented from ranged basic attack, not even hackapell does that.

I think it’s quite odd for them to have that since they already have a dedicated skill for it and honestly at this point there’s no reason to limit Kneeling Shot skill casting.

Good day my friend!

Hoping to see Mergen in one of your class breakdowns soon! :slight_smile:

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as a main alchemist non shop player…

every patch feels like quicksand :frowning:

I feel like the class I wanted to be the most since cbt is getting annoying to use by the weeks :sad:

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I’m trying to avoid R8 classes for now as they aren’t complete and some require lower classes to be covered first or will benefit from it, even Mergen is one that i’d like to do after a specific archer class. As this is the only request so far i’ll see if i can speed it up.

Would like to see a Sadhu breakdown. I think it’s one of the most interesting classes but completely misses the mark in terms of identity.

2 Likes

Fun fact: this sentence isn’t funny or factual…

Sadhu and Psychokino share a similar almost equal history in terms of “Progress through time”…

Oh, Falconer please :slight_smile:

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Do a Monk breakdown in two words.

(Hint: Starts with D and P)

I just hope a dev or 2 are reading the breakdowns. There are so few players left that are interested enough to write up this level of detail critiques.

@4lkruzeth
What came to mind was NSFW.

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