Tree of Savior Forum

Design Breakdown - Wizard

WARNING - This thread isn’t made for new players or those that seek guidance on how to use said class, please look for proper threads regarding it such as class overviews and build guides. Design Breakdown is a design discussion thread only and has no purpose to help players on practical aspects of the game.

Starting an updated Design Breakdown Re:Build with the only class that has no real role competition as everybody gets physical, Wizard. As a base class you can’t avoid to take it and so they need to have roaster of skills useful for all sorts of builds. If you haven’t checked already the other basic class entries were also updated to the current game state.

WIZARD
“Wizard skills cover larger areas and are effective against a larger number of enemies. Wizards can summon monsters to fight for them or assist party members with support spells.”

This short description says more about the wizard tree than the class itself, tho it is fairly accurate for it. Wizard is about dealing with multiple enemies using skills and this is seen only in Swordsman on the physical side, however the big difference is how they can’t hit multiple enemies with basic attacks and don’t have the endurance require to try go melee.

Wizard theme is quite broad as the supernatural is present all over the world, in fact it was often tied to religion and that can be an issue to define a magician theme, that can be done by embracing nature, evil beings and/or the unknown. By taking that aspect in mind Wizard has to oppose Cleric in theme, there’s a counterpart this clash of ideas that is present on science and religion. Both seek to answers day to day phenomenons and questions that haunt mankind from its dawn, religion does it through the divine and is sustained by belief while science explains the world by itself and has to be experimented to valid itself as Wizard can connect with natural forces through knowledge.

We can see that the male wizard costume resembles a lab coat unlike the usual robes that the theme is known for, the female counterpart seems to pay homage to stage magicians as it shares similarities with assistant outfits. Another interesting point is that both costumes have more complexity than Cleric’s and that may be a counterpoint their humblety, as such Wizard looks more aristocratic and that is even more evident on its special costume that seems to carry along the stage performance visuals. The Wizard thematic we get here is to manifest the inner energy and apply it on surroundings, in fact nothing it does changes fundamentally any aspect of thirds, the only major change is based on the self or manifestation of the own magic.


Earthquake (B) - Lead

The first and only skill that takes nature in a pure and direct state, instead of creating or modify elements it just shakes the earth by forcing energy into it. The only missing point on it is how it doesn’t translate the shockwave nature of it as it gets weaker on edges but that isn’t really an issue.

Back in the old days this skill had a moderate execution time that was removed due the low power output it had, however that also had a role as some higher rank skills don’t have instant effect which also made the animation clunky as it skips the whole execution motion. Earthquake explores the nature of terrain based skills in the minimum and also teaches new players that some skills will use the character direction to be executed in this tree, on top of that it also serves as a protective skill to be used once in a while as it has some large range knockdown.


Energy Bolt (D) - Midground

Shooting energy balls is something fairly common on games and anime, and ToS fits both ironically, as the mechanics of the ability are simple, condense the energy or magical power and release it at a single direction.

Energy Bolt received so many changes over time and still managed to be fairly the same but at the current state it is a questionable skill, it does serve to introduce the concept of casting and splash damage to new players but having it on a skill that is spammable, pushes enemies, has no overheats and is single target oriented feels wrong for the intended design.
On on side it feels like the main goal is to grant Wizard the ability to protect itself while dealing damage when enemies get into attack range as the AoE aspect of it is in splash to enemies near the target and this mechanic is effect works better on short distance, however with damage being the increment used on an already frequently available skill it is hard to let it slide.

When considering the short cast time and quick reload it is hard to ignore it at all specially being one of the few single target skills the tree has, in fact Energy Bolt can be the ultimate rotation filler as it is likely to be available through few skills overheats and helps to have the damage going as other skills refresh. It may be possible that Energy Bolt is the most reliable skill in the Wizard tree as it offers everything - short cooldown, AoE utility, consistent damage, knockback, free mobility cast, direct targeting, short cast and conditional extra damage.

Being that overloaded the ideal approach is to focus on a single direction as and dispose or reduce the other components. If the idea is to have it casted all time then the knockback component can be removed completely and have the skill focused on offense, if the goal is to give it a reliable single target skill splash can sacrificed instead, tho if the real goal is to be used as a reliable and consistent damage output to level early on it can be adjusted around cooldowns and overheats.

On the verge of teaching mechanics this same concept could easily be applied into wizard Z as a charge variation with some extra damage and splash damage instead of having a dedicated skill to do so, in fact this can promote cast time reduction as a helpful stat for everybody instead of being limited to certain class choices and open up the possibility to have a brand new skill replacing Energy Bolt tho that is a more extreme approach to it.


Lethargy (C) - Complement

A magic that makes enemies tired, or rather lethargic. This isn’t anything new but is a funny idea to work with as it can be seen almost as a prank in the magic spectrum, it isn’t glamorous but is fitting for a base class. It’s interesting to see that the particle effects try to sell the idea that the air around became heavier as this is often how people describe fatigue and other similar conditions. With Sleep removed from Wizard it became the only ground target skill in the class being responsible to introduce that mechanic early in the game.

Lethargy is an interesting skill to tackle, as a debuff it applies the value on the enemy and no on the user and has this same value tied to how long the enemy exist under the effects. This means no matter how strong the effect itself is it won’t make a difference if the enemy in question gets obliterated after applying it and will go on cooldown as any other skill, this major gap with buffs is what allows it to have more components, in this case 4, that scale with level and not be truly overloaded. However this logic doesn’t apply against bosses as they are the center of attention of a fight and last long enough for Lethargy to make a difference, if it weren’t for this particular case it could be reasonable as it is.

The whole deal with multiple scaling components is the overscaling effect as the skill value increases exponentially when leveled and as Lethargy lacks floors this is amplified, tho none of the skill components interact with each other directly. Any player that notices the leveling increment will instantly be drawn to the skill yet it will be unlikely to be used anywhere aside bossing the average content monster should die easily, it’s a paradoxical state as the skill is objectively strong and overloaded but has some sort of niche application field that can make it absent for a decent part of the game experience.

A small addition that can promote the skill use more often is to reintegrate Sleep inside the skill, even if it has a single hit threshold, as it is the weakest control debuff in the game and matches the skill thematic, if this isn’t as attractive than a -1 ADR effect or short duration slow can do the job. Along that it could be interesting to review which components are taken as leveling factor since the current 4 (or 3 as it takes both types of attack) lack floor and aren’t needed to be promoted all at the same time, it is fine to have them all scaling but seeing all the numbers going higher will push players to pick more often than they need. As a matter of stat choice Evasion seems to be the real stat to look for in scaling as it allows the skill to be more flexible to be taken in intermediate levels, in addition to that the magic circle bonus feels out of the theme and doesn’t have the same former value it had back in the old class system.


Magic Missile (A) - Lead

Homing magical pellets, the way it is executed makes it look like small spirits seeking living energy. Usually a skill has to be both useful and visually appealing to be satisfying but Magic Missile can get over it with the later only, it is a skill that looks like what amazing magic would be and also feels magical as it defies the conventions and expectations.

The current version of Magic Missile is the fairest as it has the bullet count to be static, this wasn’t needed at all if the skill had a reliable floor to count with but considering the skill nature it would ramp up even if the damage was static. There are few skills which mechanics can be related to Magic Missile and it’s hard to describe how bullets behave but instead of presenting itself as something scary the skill feels natural to use and brings awe. As a last point of interest the skill can also be used to gather enemies as it will spread rather easily for cheap aggro making it as one of the few pure offensive skills that has unlock value.


Magic Shield (D) - Complement

Also taking the same thematic mechanism of condensing energy, this time around the user as a barrier. With the new changes on SP consumption this skill fell to oblivion as the one of the ways to work around the limitations is by having more SP and the skill will drain it in %.

In paper the skill should be fine with some proper SP management but as a persistent buff it can be troublesome to use, any skill that imposes a drawback on use should have the ability to be easily disabled even if it has a cooldown to do it but this is a case where toggle would be the best choice. The only argument in favor of the current SP drain formula is the fact it is easy to track down the drain cost per hit but when you take that to a class tree that struggles the most without skills.

Just by taking in mind that the skill can completely backfire against multi hit skills and/or multiple enemies and that can be worse when their damage is too low for Magic Shield to be useful. This kind of scenario should be enough to review how the skill process SP drain, ideally it should be changed to consume it based on the total damage received (before Magic Shield reduction) as that alone won’t punish SP stacking and can reward those that invest on defense.


From all starter classes Wizard is the most reasonable on skill distribution as the offensive part deals with different mechanics altogether, tho Earthquake may be on disadvantage. Both buff and debuff aspects of it are in a weird state where Magic Shield offers less benefits than the skill drawback and Lethargy isn’t the kind of skill that of skill that contributes outside specific scenarios. The expected point distribution for Wizard should have Lethargy maxed, or ignored, and Magic Shield absent leaving the choice to the active skills only which in this case can be a matter of preference or build path.

The only missing piece in Wizard for a perfect introduction class is the lack of target count as part of a skill, that can be considered present in Magic Missile but it isn’t stated nor pointed out to reach new players. Aside that and the previous mentioned skill point distribution there’s not much to be commented on the class, it does a great job on exploring the theme and still be generic but doesn’t end up being dull and boring to play with. Even the overuse of Energy Bolt ends up as a positive, not excluding the fact it should be readjusted, since it allows players to always have something to look for while playing the basic class and allows the most conservative skill point distribution to work out with a single offensive skill.

Identity - C
Theme - A
Gameplay - B
Skill Distribution - C
Overall - B

If you haven’t checked yet Cleric, Scout and Swordsman were updated as well and Archer was released along, next week will have both Priest (without Chaplain) and Doppelsoeldner updated followed by a new entry in Onmyoji.

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Ooo, finally. I dunno if I just completely missed it, but I really don’t understand your terminology for stuff like: lead, high lead, chain, etc. Anyway …

GENERAL PROBLEMS
My problem with the wizard is the failure of development to differentiate attack from magic. We’ve all heard of the term “physical mage” being used to describe swordsmen and archers. Take for example a swordsman’s bash (with knock down attribute) and earthquake. Both skills do the exact same thing except bash can miss due to accuracy

Another problem (though not limited to the wiz line) is ranged, homing and unavoidable damage. In the case of wiz, EB and MM fall under this category.

  • The range is generally an advantage and is not to big an offender in terms of design. Having a difference between melee and range is a good thing. It is a problem when combined with other things.
  • Homing refers to a skills ability to track its target. When EB and MM are released they home in on their targets no matter what. The only counter play to these skills is to not be in range on cast (or if MM bugs out on its own). This basically means “don’t engage” or “you are screwed when you engage” because these skills are basically guaranteed to hit unless you have some special skill to dodge/block magic
  • Magic is unavoidable baseline. Like “range” this is not bad by itself on paper (but is bad in practice because of how stats work). Add something like “homing” and you basically have an “I win” button if the goal is to do damage. This is not a problem when applied to skill shots as the nature of skill shots allow telegraphs (allowing others to avoid said telegraph). This makes sleep and earthquake good design in that they are skill shots

The root of these problems are tied to control schemes. Keyboards and game pads are limited to 8 directions so tab target is used to compensate. Tab targeting is an old mechanic used in games that do not have today’s innovative input advances. It was (still is) good on pen and paper style games but not for action style games.

Just look at Secret of Mana 3D remake. These archers (chobin hood) used to only shoot in 8 directions in the 2D version making their shots more avoidable vs the 360 degree aim the 3D versions have in this video.

DESIGN PHILOSOPHY
I will repeat what I’ve said before about r6 and below classes since wiz fall under that category.

The entire wiz kit is designed to work by itself because r6 and below are designed (in the beginning) to not share skills across different classes. Turning into a non wiz (pyro for example) will lock you out of wiz skills. That is why you have “everything” in the wiz kit. It is not that bad an offense because it is the base class on wiz but it is still the same kit since the creation of the class.

Wiz has: magic damage, cc, debuffs, and buffs. Focus the class into 2 (maybe magic damage and debuffs)

SKILLS
Energy bolt(EB) | magic missile(MM) + sleep | lethargy
Anything that can not miss (no RNG to calculate hit or miss) MUST be a skill shot. It’s that simple (IMHO). There are different ways to implement this using current mechanics already available in ToS so there is no excuse not to do it.

  • Fortell (oracle) is a skill shot that can be applied to buffs (magic shield, surespell, quick cast) and debuffs (lethargy, sleep). Casting it point blank will make it harder to avoid but at least from range it will allow players to avoid it after cast instead of hoping they aren’t in the casting zone (via constantly moving around) when the cast completes.
  • Ice wall (cryomancer) shows us that these walls can be cast at any angle and can be used to create projectile skill shots
  • Ressurection (priest) is a very wide skill shot

Magic shield
The current iteration is “ok” but could use improvement.

  • The hit count is “ok” but fails on its CD. Losing 1%SP per hit is a big enough price to pay to warrant an extremely low CD get hit 100x and your out of SP. With no CD you can spam it but any multi hit damage source will wreck your SP pool. That makes it so even if you have it up 100% of the time, there is counter play.
  • The damage reduction is ok but needs a flat component in addition to the 20% due to the logarythmic nature of defense. It does “nothing” against trash damage otherwise.

This could be comparable to the old blessing having a hit count but low CD. Magic shield having a low CD coupled with a noticable cast time (and the 1%SP cost per hit) is a big enough penalty to warrant the damage reduction.

  • Magic shield
    Reduce incoming damage by 20%
    Reduce incoming damage by x * skill lv (max lv 10)
    10 sec CD
    ! 1% mSP cost per hit
    ! reduce SP cost by SPR * attribute lv - can be an attribute (max lv 20)

Sleep
The dream eater attribute could be disjoint from the sleep CC and be its own debuff.

Surespell | quick cast
These effects can be 1 buff with a cast time to turn casts instant. Give it a hefty CD with a condition to reduce said hefty CD.

  • Sure cast
    Channel this spell to make your next spell (just 1) instant cast.
    2 sec channel (looking at rune caster for balance)
    30 sec CD
    ! AA’s reduces this CD by 1 sec
    ! spell casts (instant or hard cast) reduces this CD by 2 sec - can be an attribute
    ! taking damage reduces this CD by 2 sec - can be an attribute

  • The new ram muai is an example of skill casts affecting the CD of other skills (not new).

  • Interruptable casts need to go as there are plenty of KB/KD’s that ignore surespell anyway

CIRCLE SKILL DISTRIBUTION
C1 - EB EQ lethargy sleep
You have 2 damage skills with 2 debuffs that have effects by themselves but also combos with the 2 damage skills (EB with sleep and EQ with lethargy). This lines up with “specializing” the wizard line into magic damage and debuffs.

C2 - MM MS
Consolidating the “magic named” skills in this circle is just a novelty thing.

C3 - Sure Cast (SURE spell combined with quick CAST)
This would “redefine” the base spells of the wizard changing how it is played by a lot. Moving forward, class building would involve getting as many instant casts to be able to avoid hard casting your bigger spells.

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I link to the thread with those at the start of any topic, it isn’t really important to know but you can find here.

This is a really interesting thing to point, the only way to fix aiming to enable skill shots is by using mouse oriented controls or numpad movement, the issue is that both aren’t the best for casual and new players to get into the game and they also compromise notebook players (the later one being impossible to deal with), Ice Wall has a kind of mechanic that can’t be done as quickly with another control setup.

Now you may say that mouse could fix most of it but for a game to have movement operated through mouse it needs to have clear terrain and flat ground (even tho mobs ignore heigh) as it works with paths, most maps aren’t really appropriated for it and it would be impractical to change them and the game controls at this point.

I think overall the homing/targeted skills are decently designed as they don’t have nearly the same damage output for the reliability they have (those two don’t even have elemental property), and as far i know this isn’t the norm for wizards. It would be fairer for them to have cast time and be a reason for Surespell and Quick Cast to exist in as wizard skills.

There’s a rule i take for every class on those is “can i stop at any circle?”, that’s also why i don’t talk about attributes much as they can affect lower level skills. Wizard does succeed on it but it the casting buffs don’t really matter for the class itself. It’s also the reason i complain about skills without floor that much.

@ Magic Shield

I think it’s reasonable aside the fact it’s forced into the party members as it has a penalty (i could be wrong about the execution on that instance tho).

This is actually something that i’d be looking forward if they change casting mechanics, for the way it’s dealt right now it would be fairly impractical. Regardless of that it still has the same issue for wizard as no other skill has real cast and so it doesn’t improve itself at all.

Mouse mode still allows movement via keys (WASD instead of arrows). Moving via mouse is one of the worst ways to move in tos as the 1st click always just won’t register as a “move” but rather “interact”.

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This skill reminds me of Ragnarok Onlines “Energy Coat”, which probably was the inspiration for the Reflect Shield>Magic Shield changes.

Energy Coat is a Mage Class (the base job in RO, Wizard is an advanced job) bonus skill that can be acquired via quest.
When cast successfully, the skill reduces the incoming damage by a certain, fluctuating percentage of its total damage, depending on your current percentage of the maximum SP.

The reduction can be anywhere between 30% and 0%.

Because it has no hit limit but rather scales downwards with lower SP/max SP-ratio, it’s balanced but still rather strong.
This + the ability wear a shield and learn Safety Wall (basically ROs Safety Zone) make Mages the strongest damage-mitigator (especially the Sage-path with even more mitigation possibilities) aside of the Crusader-branch.

But, coming back to Wizard:

It’s simply too strong if it is providing protection with full uptime.

It would be most likely even be stronger than Clerics Safety Zone.
Safety Zone blocks at most 20+ skilllevel*2 hits, so 50 hits over 20 seconds with 48 seconds CD time.
50/5 party members would translate into 10 hits per member, i.e. 5000% damage.

Magic Shield blocks 20% damage for skillevel amount of hits, so at most 15 * 20% = 300% per member.
That’s 1500% for all 5 members.

However, it can have full uptime if the members are not hit for more than 15 times within the 45 seconds CD time, as the skill has a 300 second duration.

This means that, no matter how slow or fast an enemy attacks, you don’t have any malus.

The skill also allows full movement capabilities[Cleric protective skills usually are short-lived (e.g. Mackangdal, Stone Skin) or limited to a specific area (e.g. Barrier,Safety Zone, Sterea Troph)]
and cannot be removed by monsters (yet, who knows if monsters will learn to dispel one day,too)
while stronger boss monsters can and will remove Safety Zone.

If you ask me, the advantage of Magic Shield is clear, it is easier to handle (AoE buff), can be actively prolonged (by evading attacks) and shields the whole team for up to 300% damage each.

By the way, we must not forget that Onmyouji has Genbu Shield, which works similarly, so Magic Shield can’t be too strong.

About Wizard in general:

While Wizard provides ± everything that the advanced Classes need (Surespell, Quickcast, Lethargy),
the attack skills are all over the place if you ask me.

Energy Bolt is a bad autoattack with CD time,
Earth Quake has the issue of being too close to the caster (good in combination with Sleep&Lethargy, but Wizards shouldn’t be forced close to the enemy) and a very limited AoE (AoE attackratio +4 only;
IMO the ratio should grow by 1 per skilllevel so that lvl 16 would have +20 AoE attack ratio)
and Magic Missile is simply too strong for a Rank 2 skill (high skill modifier, low attribute costs, low CD time, 3 overheats, homing ability,medium-high amount of possible targets, no elemental weakness).

My case for MS is this. Constantly having to recast and the SP burned is enough of a penalty to warrant an effect that can already be achieved NOW (100% uptime). Add to that the fact that hits can be wasted by blocking 20% of crap damage for the same SP penalty.

Unlike the cleric versions, mindlessly keeping MS up can be a detriment.

Ideally you want MS to catch high damage spikes (like from velcoffer) to get the most value for the SP you have to burn. Against players who can actually think, they can burn the shield off with trash damage (not hard to do with lines of atk). In an even more controlled setting there are skills for removing the buff.

* Looks at Burrow *

See, you aren’t alone as the most useless C3 skill… :neutral_face:


I wish to see alchemist in the future :3

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I’m truly amazed by your method and analysis, keep up the good work, please!

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