Tree of Savior Forum

Design Breakdown - Wizard Tree


#1

WARNING - This thread isn’t made for new players or those that seek guidance on how to use said class, please look for proper threads regarding it such as class overviews and build guides. Design Breakdown is a design discussion thread only and has no purpose to help players on practical aspects of the game.

Before get into the discussion itself i want to defend IMC for being so bold as to move classes out of trees altogether, as the goal is to set classes into more path options without power scaling and decrease punishment for certain combinations it looks like a good decision. However no big change comes with no drawback and this is visible from class migration and builds being taken away, both on synergetic value and the fantasy achieved by combining them. That said it wasn’t the only way to reorganize trees and this will be one point to be explored here, additionally the new tree has to be discussed as a new element in the already settled balance of roles and how their basic characteristics have to be fleshed out.

The main topics to address here are the unique value of each tree, how advanced classes are connected to it, which classes were/could be taken out due identity and theme, how shifted classes work on their placement and what these classes may face on their new environment. It may be impossible to restrain some comments that are more appropriated to a full class analysis so they may come back depending on how things go. With these threads i’ll also point out some undiscussed natural synergy and identity overlap within the tree. Don’t forget that the development team is subject to limitations and some ideas may not work due engine, practicality and balance issues. Sometimes it isn’t IMC’s fault.


Among all trees Wizard always had the best synergy with the only small dissonance in unit based classes being using SPR to deal and endure damage. There wasn’t any build path that didn’t worked due the tree itself, in fact the only inviability in it was a matter of other game elements’ design that had it less likely to work out but still be usable. With that in mind the Re:Build didn’t changed how the tree works but rather expanded the combination diversity.

The only common element seen in the tree is magic damage and elemental control, exceptions to that are Chronomancer, as the only true support, and updated Alchemist, as a wild card inclined to support. As themes goes the defining factors are connection with the occult and/or forces of nature and it is interesting to get into the details of it.

Occultism - Draw power from demons, spirits and other supernatural forces, this often comes with a change in the relationship of power with the entity, such as subjugation, as it takes power from or offer something in exchange for it. It’s important to point out that the occult works on closed spheres and doesn’t focus on the self improvement or to bring peace of spirit.
Nature Control - The ability to bend natural elements to the user will and expand their capabilities, this is often associated with the primordial aristotelic elements but can also incorporate physics as they are a later step in this same study field. Time, space and energy can all fall into this category.

A mixed division is more fitting for Wizard as the tree deals with different aspects that aren’t completely related, summoning is a rather mechanical aspect to take on but elemental influence is more into the thematic side. Thus the groups will follow a different criteria in order to discuss some interesting points in the tree.

Pure Elemental Group

In order for elements to be a deal the game has to present scenarios where element management is relevant and classes to master each one of them (currently lacking earth) as well, as that doesn’t happen they end up as simple bonuses and penalties instead of active strategic aspects of the game even if for solo play only. Ironically with the new class system it isn’t possible to balance out elements by taking bits of several classes as specialization is forced, that said a route with only pure elemental classes will offer more power on a trivial aspect and have players incapable of full/balanced elemental control if they so desire.

Pyromancer - All about damage over time and magnitude, the damage isn’t instantaneous as most classes do but rather something that has to be build up and requires enemy positioning to shine. It’s one of the few classes with a stone solid direction, even tho it can be improved, and may have the deserved place in the new environment…
Shadowmancer - A class that lacks direction or can’t promote itself enough to make it visible, there’s too much going on to know where it wants to go taking defense, magnitude, burst damage, delayed damage and utility. It’s likely for it to stay relevant for the strong defensive skills and the overall versatility it can be outperformed by any other classes that has a round skill set.
Warlock - The major attractive in the class is the minefield aspect of spirit but this unique feature isn’t as explored, it proved that it is important to the class as it performed poorly when the spawn limit was capped at 5 but even with the value double it is likely to hurt the class on the long run. In terms of property magic it is possible that Warlock overperforms Shadowmancer, it has longer cooldowns but the class can also use other’s skills through Invocation to deal damage which may drag it along heavy AoE builds.
Taoist - In theory Taoist is a zone based class reworked into a lightning property wizard of same mechanical nature, it kept some of the utility it had before but still needs to be more directed towards a goal. The external synergy of Upper Level may be enough to promote the class along the unique playstyle, this will need to be reviewed once the patch kicks in.
Psychokino - Moving enemies is what it does and it uses all directions it can, due the damage over time and control nature it has it will always clash with Pyromancer and Cryomancer which is something to be aware of. Ideally this should be addressed as quick as possible since the power level of those classes is, in theory, equal, in fact it may be outcasted by Cryomancer if the control aspect isn’t enough (despite being irrelevant if all enemies die).
Featherfoot - Likely to be a melee wizard as the sustain element helps it to not die when doing so, that said it is a really odd and unique addition to the tree but would be more interesting if it had more varieties on the front. One element that was diminished on Re:Build was the exclusivity over heal in the Wizard tree, as Alchemist gained potion skills it can heal in party, be more efficient and do it instantaneously at the cost of less offensive power. Featherfoot is a niche type of class that may be harmed by that (along Linker absence), unlikely to be picked due the the melee elements but possible over the sustain skills.


Mult Elemental Group

Composed of classes that have at least three elements and none of them is present in half or more of the skill set. Ironically they can’t develop elements as strategic choice either since they don’t own enough skills to have promote diversity, not to mention few skills play out as the same.

Elementalist - Having an identity as a dissonant amalgamation seldom works but this can be an exception due the base theme (will be explained in an individual analysis), a player that wants diversity on how attacks are performed can reach out for Elementalist. The special mechanics it has can be enough to keep it relevant but it may need a little push on that side to reach its peak. As a bonus the class can also exploit elemental properties through Elemental Essence despite that skill being a terrible addition.
Onmyoji - Being short, AoE damage with huge magnitude. There’s no single wizard class with that much reach in the game and those that seek won’t have trouble when looking for a class, even then the class theme has more potential than it uses (at least for the context). However the thematic side of Onmyoji is right at the edge as a blend of wizardry with religion. The onmyodo is an occultist practice that was born from elements of buddhism, shintoism and taoism, they doesn’t have followers or a distinct belief system in the strict sense but are seeked to deal with supernatural events. One of the tasks Onmyoji would be in charged of is to purge demons and evil spirits which led the term to be often translated as exorcist, they also possessed the power to make these creatures into servants which is why it can exist in this grey area. If the class were moved to Cleric it would offer elemental magic damage that the tree lacks so much and it’s reasonable as all skills have catalysts, there are more possibilities to be explored in it that are enough for a full analysis.
Rune Caster - The base class design was always gimmicky and lacked identity, adapting it to the new system didn’t fixed those issues but rather made it less interesting. For the effort required to unlock the class and the generic elemental skills it has it doesn’t seem like it will be that popular nor helpful, oddly enough Rune Caster has a buff to reduce incoming damage while casting but the action itself was made easier through rod attributes and going for both is counter productive. Using the source as the bridge the theme can also fall into religion since runes have power from gods and higher beings as part norse mythology (comparable to Druid), as it uses catalysts it can be a great fit into Cleric while mildly breaking the tree rules.


Summoning Group

When changing summons to take only SPR summoners where complete with a pure stat distribution, they had all the damage, defense and reliability with no drawback. This was later addressed by using CON as the minion HP scaling and own the caster defense as minion’s, which goes back to the previous INT and SPR iteration it had on release but in an unhealthier state as the player gets a lot of HP accompanied with unlimited casting capability. As a matter of balance the initial scaling was the most fitting with the only issue being how weak summons were by taking only one stat and how they had a huge cost of SP to maintain itself but neither are an issue when stats are distributed automatically, in Re:Build it is possible to revert the scaling to fit Wizard’s needs and adjust minion power in proportion to the game difficulty. That said having INT oriented classes in the build can work as an incentive to be less focused on summons itself and explore alternative builds that mix traditional offensive with minion classes, there’s won’t be another chance as good as this to settle it for good and it’s a shame they let it slide.

Another point to address in summoning as a whole is how player agency is taken, by default any minion based class will go against the agency principle as they take the spotlight and do the hard work. This kind of mechanics is great for players to abuse by killing enemies AFK or even botting and both happened in the past, it can be helpful for those that have high latency but has to keep in mind how the power is balanced compared to real active classes. Despite that each of these classes tries to address the agency issue in different ways which for a more compelling gameplay.

Sorcerer - Elite summoner, it focus on having less units and focus its power on a single minion. It is the least active class from the group and the only features that change it switch the game controls so heavily that other skills can’t be used at all, with Bokor addition the tree Sorcerer playstyle will have more support as minions don’t require other skills to work and Necromancer can be the last class on the build. Regardless, Sorcerer discussion deserves its own dedicated analysis.
Necromancer - The traditional summoning class, it can build a small army by picking from different types of minions and have them to do all the work. Agency is addressed through a debuff that amplifies minion damage, it isn’t the ideal way to take it but it’s good enough to promote action within it. It’s interesting to that Necromancer has a special synergy with channel and casting skills as those mechanics restrain the user action to apply an effect, this matches perfectly the automated nature of skeletons and is a good way to fill the class downtime without stopping the damage.

Bokor - On agency behalf this is the best class to incorporate minions into an active gameplay, Bokor minions are expendable and as such have the weakest stats on the board but the point of the class is use them through other skills instead of having them mindlessly killing enemies. As the other quantity based class this is a needed distinction in order to keep them relevant when players can’t pick both. Speaking of agency Bokor is a better contender to take on magic circles oriented classes as it can lure enemies while dealing damage with Bwa Kayiman as other summoners would remain still, not to mention it has Hexing as a valuable debuff for the tree.


Support Group

With three of the group classes expelled this group lost a lot of power and relies on the shorter end of the tree. The name is quite self explanatory and they either deal with improving ally power or disabling and debuffing enemies, that said they can deal damage but that isn’t the main focus.

Chronomancer - Controlling the speed, most of what Chronomancer does is to speed up favorable processes and slow down threats. That said the skillset is dull and too situational to be useful, it needs both some polish on skills and a revision on how the class will deliver the identity. With the band aid changes taken before Re:Build patch the class will be relevant enough to be an option but still fail as a full class and that can’t be addressed without a proper rework. To put it in simple terms one of the best aspects of Chronomancer is the control capability which Cryomancer does it better and in more quantity while Psychokino is as effective and deals damage.
Alchemist - Expand item functionality and its power, this class was neglected for a long time and is back being the only completely reliable healer in the tree. There’s still quite some work to be done in it but for now it got a basic skill set that is useful. Regarding its thematics the class doesn’t need to be in Wizard tree anymore, back in the game release no other tree compatible with the class theme but this isn’t the case nowadays. Alchemy is taken as a occultistic practice but over time it was refined and branched into chemistry as a real science, the major elements of the class theme are described as pharmacy and chemical reactions which doesn’t isn’t linked to magic. Besides pharmacy and chemistry the other part of the class theme lies in herbalism (used on other games) which requires knowledge on plants, Scout is a good setup for this as its theme works with recon and intel being both important elements on the class path. It makes sense to have some branch of Scout to take samples from their field expeditions and develop chemicals to use as remedy or weapons, in fact this allows it to have the skill set expanded in unfitting directions for the current tree. The only reason to point this option is due absence of magic in the class, if Alchemist had more skills that are tied to wizardry and/or the occult it wouldn’t be possible to do such transition but as far it goes all it does is brewing and minor transmutation (which is as magical as Enchanter’s). On the mechanical side it would take healing outside Wizard tree, still available through Featherfoot, and complement the support branches of Scout as it seems to be a big attractive in it.
Cryomancer* - All about locking enemies out of action in their current position, the class does it so well that it is enough to be picked without questioning. The only competition on that regard is in Psychokino as is also a heavy control class that has consistent damage along, however it has the lower stick when taking duration into the equation.
Sage - Not a proper support class but it also doesn’t fit on any other category, along that it doesn’t communicate any identity in particular which can be an issue. The best traits of Sage are the portal mechanics and the gimmicks on duplication and magic circle enlargement, any other effect can be delivered by other class more efficiently. On pure thematics it could be possible to merge it with Chronomancer as space and time are the same thing and that solves two problems on a single blow but so far no class was removed (or merged) after the official release, additionally that wouldn’t work on the identity side. The performance of Sage is completely unpredictable as it is on the gimmicky side of classes and that doesn’t benefit it on Re:Build, not only that but most of the class value was tied on how it could complement Linker and Thaumaturge as they lacked offensive skills but that won’t be the case anymore. There are some interesting uses for the class but that is unlikely to push it in the same tier as any other offensive class, in fact it wouldn’t be surprising to have this class forgotten completely until it gets a heavy rework.


Former Wizards

All classes in this category were moved to Scout as they acted only on the support side of magic use, this time they did made quite some impact on the thematic loss which has to be heavily adapted to work in the new tree. The major issue with these changes is how the arcane type magic won’t be part of the Wizard tree anymore, it is an unusual theme zone explored in wizardry as mages that explore the special properties of magic as in a metaphysical plane or how magic is processed. Arcane magic is one of the most mysterious as it can affect how reality works and it will be restricted (slightly) to Sage and Chronomancer killing the high wizardry fantasy from the tree, the only option that completes a build to be arcanic-esque is Psychokino as it can fit the scope but is only psychokinetic power. Linker was a major class in this line and Thaumaturge could also be interpreted as part of it (especially with skills like Reversis and Transpose), even Enchanter that has elemental connections was part of this group with Agility, Empowering and scroll crafting. All that said this is a minor loss in the grand scale of what those classes provided for the whole tree, however any player that feel like playing a wizard that isn’t tied to elements nor summons won’t have that many options to fulfill their fantasy which was supposed to be an aspect the game excels at.

Thaumaturge - Changing size of elements is an unusual feature for games to work with and this why it was part of the Wizard class, however as all swelled and shrunk elements are living beings it could be done by using chemicals, instead of arcane magic, which is something aligned with Scout’s theme. Thaumaturge needs a new costume to get it less magician like and some tweaks on the skill set.
Enchanter - Likely to be the worst offender despite being plausible for an outsider in the magical field, the issue is how the class is still tied to elements on the execution side when these should be provided as small power ups (enchantments) and the way the theme is executed it feels like adding some physical properties of a given element without applying the element itself. The only way to fix the thematic dissonance of it is to either change all skills to incorporate elements (even if only on the visual level - icon, particles, name, etc) or remove them completely, lightning is playing a major role on Scout but none of the classes has a theme that really supports it.
Linker - In Re:Build Linker will keep the same skills but the essential magic is replaced my mere chains which will regardless of explanation won’t have the same impact, along that the costume has to be reworked to fit the new tree. As a side note (as some can perceive it that way) Linker’s lesser magic is fitting for the Enchanter theme and could be taken in to have a more neutral skill (losing elemental enchants) set that is still wizardish but that would present identity issues if not addressed correctly.

There’s few alarming cases in this tree and most of the classes can survive with a band aid if they don’t hit the mark, synergy isn’t an issue and is likely never to be one which is what ensures the tree stay reasonable for a long time. It’s the only tree that can get out with a simple polishment on certain classes skills and perhaps replace some of them.


The next in the block is Archer before we conclude it with Scout, according to the Re:Build launch predictions the last segment of the tree discussion will be released in the same week as the patch. On one side this means it can resume operations but it will stay on hiatus in order to update the previous entries, hopefully it won’t take that long. Please participate in the discussion or drop a like to show your appreciation for the series.


#2

Sage tries to be an AoE dps, single target dps, defensive, gimmicky, utility, CC class all at once. Only to fail and end up being sub-par at everything… Which is a shame really. I kinda like the idea of merging it with chrono, but I dont think many people would like that.

Also, about cryo, you didnt mention the absurdly high damage potential the class has. Sure, its VERY gimmicky and situational, but Icewall might be one of the skills with the highest damage potential in rebuild. In my opinion, that makes psychokino an even worse choice, since it can’t do as much damage as cryo can.

Bong tos video on the icewall combo (I’m surprised the game doesnt crash from the amount of hits it deals lol): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcA4i2THAFc


#3

Is ironic that the 3 wiz classes I never tried won’t be wiz anymore xD

I guess that’s the problem with been stubborn and not been able to do all the builds I want without dropping cash :frowning:


#4

Isn’t that just the same thing? The difference between both spheres is just a cultural thing created by monotheistic religions that strictly separate pagan beliefs with world creation and divine law&order.

In the case of demons and occulstism, the term demon stems from the Proto-Indoeuropean term daimon, which means divider/provider, and later changed to Greek daimon (“good spirit”, as it consists of the terms god/divine and power/fate). They were spiritual beings that interceded and interfered with peoples fates on numerous occasions throughout Greek mythology.

With early Christianity, which stemmed from the cultural mix of Levantinian religions/beliefs (mostly Semitic ones like Judaism, Nabatean paganism, Arabic paganism and Phoenician paganism), the terminology of spirits changed, as there were both good and evil spirits/deities within these beliefs (e.g. Djinn are both created as good and evil entities who influence the human sphere).

As the ultimate enemy of Christianity, the Antichrist Lucifer was accompanied to everything spiritual, thus turned the pagan spiritual sphere in a sphere of evil and anti-divine forces[i.e. they only interfered with gods creation], giving birth to the term demon as we know it.

So, by looking at it objectively, we can conclude that both realms are exactly the same.
Even better evidence provide religious animistic beliefs (e.g. in Southern and Western Africa or South East Asia and Oceania) where there is no strict separation between good and evil, and occult practices (e.g. Bokor in Vodoo) are generally just extended and enstranged ritualistic practices that try to twist the spiritual worldly influence to the peoples favor.

Values like “Mana” and “Karma” come from those proto-religions, which can be freely exchanged with soul/spirit/whatever terminology in religions.
Accumulation and exchange were,are and ever will be a part of (religious) belief in the cognitive sphere of different cultures and people, and just shifting the point of view can create the illusion of having real differences on the foundation/base level.

So in term of nature control, we always have an equivalent exchange as in terms of occultistic practices, both are the same but listed from different points of view.

This is where the analysis comes to a standstill, because the way you reasoned was from the divine sphere.

Isn’t the reason why the human cannot do magic in the first place that he is not a supernatural being?
The real theme of Wizard is the extraction of the human being from nature (i.e. all kinds of Wizardry are acts against nature, as they distort, change or ignore natural laws), turning him into a supernatural being.

A Wizard is no longer a human, he’s a being between humans and gods, and thus rivals their existence as humanity has overcome divine creation and rule (i.e. law&order = nature).

Now here’s the catch:
Not all Wizards are truly Wizards. In fact, quite a lot of them are simply borrowing and abusing nature for their gain, e.g. Alchemist,Runecaster&Necromancer, with equivalent exchange.
Bokor and Taoist are still Clerics since they borrow their power from the divine sphere rather than twisting the nature to their bidding. The Classes would’ve had to have a complete overhaul and renaming to change that, which didn’t happen.

This in turn means that every single of these non-Wizards makes the whole build non-Wizard, as it still relies on nature and gods rule to do anything.

In my opinion, it is very hard and basically unbelievable to have Wizards fighting on the side of the goddesses to save the world that they no longer are part of,rival and try to overcome completely (which is the ultimate goal of Wizardry).
In fact, it would make more sense to place Wizards on the same side as the demons, as they are essentially overthrowing the whole creation (and will at one point since mortality and limitations are the greatest enemies of humanity).
No Wizard sane in his mind would actually side with the ones trying to govern and suppress them.

This in turn begs the question: what will happen in the lore? Will the Wizards try to overthrow the gods?
Will they stand by the side as gods and demons kill each other to make the superhuman “Wizard” the next ruling supernatural entity?

The story could take some surprising twists in the future and we could face a faction war incoming, dividing the playerbase.


#5

@Zeucleio

This is why i keep complaining about identity. Doing too much is likely to backfire in a game that works with specialization, however it may not be as bad with a more limited class choice (even tho allowing this sort of design can lead to a lot of generic classes down the line to the point everything becomes trivialized)

That’s a great feature, but it’s just feature (also the same reason i didn’t pointed out Taoist and Electrocute). It would be unfair to bring it up being something that specific, the other classes i commented on had more unexplored and unconventional elements that work together but don’t seem to be brought up. I’m quite concerned about how Cryomancer and Psychokino will work out when they have such similar identities and i have no idea on which one will be more relevant, hopefully they’ll get Psychokino to be more into the enemy movement as it used to be.

@DrRM

It’s a shame, two of my favorite wizard builds (Link-Thaum-Sage and Pyro-Cryo-'Chanter) will be dead due that. I’ll say only once (cause i don’t want to be passionate on analysis threads) but this change made me question if i’d still play and care for the game, i want to keep playing as an arcane wizard and i can see that IMC will kill it forever with the current tree guidelines. The sole fact ToS allowed me to be a full support wizard that plays out of the traditional support conventions was amazing and adding up it had a theme that is hard to explore gave it bonus points, it’s the kind of playstyle i see only in solo player games but feels so good when playing with a party.

The worst part is that i know Enchanter is a viable option for this support build but it doesn’t click on theme (nor will on the feel) of this build in particular and i doubt any new Scout class will connect in the same way Sage did, it had the damage the build lacked, support features to complement it and it felt like a natural part of what the character theme is going for. I’m done with rant…

@Umineko

Since you pointed out the lore i’ll use it as a bridge to point out some things. The reason why lore was dismissed here (and in other discussions as well) is due coding and investment, when you present an idea people already know it is easier for them to recognize and relate than making something completely new which is why having reference on historical groups or simple concepts works so well. Whenever you do something new and unique you have to get people already invested on it, however the starting point has to be something familiar (be that a rerash coded on an old idea) to have people into it. The few classes that aren’t based on real life counterpart, folklore or legends (such as Dragoon and Bullet Marker) work with pre established concepts as their backbone to have them fresh and friendly at the same time.

This is why we have so many classes based on different religions (some being monotheistic) in a game that has a pantheon of goddesses, for this matter it is better to get the lore out of the way on the class design and connect it later on. I won’t deny it would be amazing to have a completely new cleric class completely based on the goddesses (just an example) and that has skills tied to the game lore and its elements, however this could alienate players that don’t have this knowledge won’t have a reference to understand it without diving into the game. Now if we factor that the game has at least 300 maps with 10 quests each, hidden quests, a good hundred (or thousands) of NPCs and books, it is hard to ask people to know all of it. It’s ironic that a game conceived to have deep lore was made so big from start that it may drive players out of it due sheer size, in fact the game progression is so fast that players won’t have time to appreciate the early and mid maps and/or get into the plot (this is further amplified by the fact none of the early content is required at high levels or has a more efficient counterpart somewhere else).

With that out of the way let’s get back to the magic part. Depending on the needs it can be explained in several ways and that can be found in old times among different cultures, some (i believe celts) take it as asking spirits or magical creatures to help them, others have a real contract with demons/entities (that have some sort of elemental power) to gain their power or just use the magical essence one has to manipulate natural elements. This last one in particular is completely up to the individual as long as the universe it is in allows to, it may be a matter of aptitude or knowledge but there’s no supernatural influence on it. I think it’s more interesting to work out with the concept of self perfection in RPGs as a whole, the difference between an archer and swordsman isn’t that they wouldn’t be naturally capable of doing their job but rather how they decided to invest their time and practice their skills to mastery. If an adventurer thinks it’s more suitable for physical combat than magic it will end up as some sort of warrior despite being able to be a wizard given the time and effort to (just like it happens to any skill in real life), of course the lore can impose any kind restriction but that’s big can of worms that is better to avoid. The theme itself it doesn’t care about which explanation you use to justify how magic is done, however it better to have classes held by a common thread so the average player can recognize which class is from which tree with simple elements (even tho some classes themes are in the edge with other trees and Scout addition disrupted the balance).

For the occultism x religion part, these can be two sides of a same subject but isn’t always the case (and again we have to ignore the lore to avoid a mess). Occultism doesn’t have the worship aspect religions have and can deal with other cultural elements such as folklore, in fact they can use pagan religions entities (both good and evil) once they’ve lost their religious status. Some historians believe the is a byproduct Beelzebub (baal zebub - an expression that is roughly translated as “baal may bless you”) of a religious maneuver with hebrew religion growth, to weaken canaanite religion they turned Baal (god of storm and fertility) into be a fake god that deceived people to worship him to gain power and, due social pressure and political interest, it fell out in favor of the omnipotent god. One interesting aspect of religions is that they don’t need demons to work, in fact only few evil entities are really needed in them as any other kind of malefic being can be a minor tool to establish the “lore” and can be forgotten once people stop talking about it (which is an important trait of occultism, being unknown and mystical).

A fun aspect of demons is that they are easier to be adopted into other cultures as they play with the negative side of the world and often aren’t completely tied to a religion, it’s likely that ghosts became that prominent due this simple aspect (along the after life concept). On the folklore side we have all sort of creatures that are tied to culture instead of religion and some of them will offer people a deal for power or goods, this can be seen in the tale of Rumpelstiltskin (in a rough summary) as an imp that provides straws of gold to a young lady, which lead her to become a queen, in exchange of her firstborn (i’d add Faust tale as well but it can be tied to christianism). There are a lot of tales of such nature around the world with some tied to (or referenced in) religion but this isn’t a rule, after all a fair share of japanese monsters were imported to china and they had different religions. Personally speaking it would be awesome to have this kind of development with wizards claiming more power over goddesses but i don’t believe it will happen knowing the game tone, ToS wizards don’t seem to subjugate devils instead of bargaining with them.


#6

I think most of us know how you feel as many have builds that were rip apart by RE:B :frowning:

For me it’s a hard blow cause am a “role-player” I don’t play the role exactly, but all my characters come from somewhere and have a predestined Clothing, skill set, weapon, partner, backstory…

So trying to re adapt a character to still fit on it “lore” or try to come up with another character on the fly if they let us change name…

its harsh :sad: