Tree of Savior Forum

Prinny Polling Predictions: Preliminary analysis of ToS token trends

Prologue:

Hi all!

Resident polling prinny chronosanct here! Before going into the meat of this post, I would like to urge people who haven’t voted in the poll where I’m getting data from to please do so HERE.

I want the polls to have a smaller margin of error (so 600-1000 responses would be ideal!)

That said, even if someone decides to read the preliminary conclusions I’ve reached and votes to change the trends that are currently in place, if they don’t actually follow through when the game actually launches, then it will only lead to a worsening of what I am about to describe. So uh… feel free to do whatever helps you sleep at night I guess…

So if you’ve already VOTED and you are ready to brave a wall of text please continue on below!

There’s also a Tl;dr at the bottom if you’re lazy.


Objective and Definitions:

Some people commented that the poll that I put up was ‘dumb’ for lack of a better term. Why does it matter how many people buy tokens they ask?

Some of the questions I wanted to answer with that poll:

  1. Is it the case that F2P players will be able to easily obtain tokens?
  1. How fluid will the token market be and what trends can be expected in the future given current token buyer distributions?

Before proceeding, I also want to define what I mean by P2W:

I personally define P2W as in-game game-play advantages that a paying player can access, but that a F2P player cannot.

Importantly, this definition is not a [Yes/No] label. If cash shop item [Magic Boots of +50,001 WIN] is easily obtainable by F2P players, I would not call it P2W. If however a cash shop item is possible to get but not practical to obtain, then it becomes increasingly P2W as the chances of actually obtaining the item as a F2P player decreases.

Example (in my opinion) of higher P2W tendencies: Yes Timmy, you too can become a magic scroll owner if you just spend 36+ hours grinding in dungeons that you are limited to playing 2 times a day! It’s totally possible and a fair playing field!

Many people have argued that tokens are not P2W because although they provide game-play advantages, F2P players will be able to reasonably obtain them.

I hope most people will agree that if tokens can not be reasonably obtained by F2P players, then they become increasingly P2W, because token game-play bonuses essentially become advantages that only paying players can obtain.


Results:

Okay! So what do the current data actually show? As of 3/27/16 results of the poll show:

35% - 0 token players (F2P)
55% - 1 token players
1% - 2 token players
1% - 3 token players
0% - 4 token players
8% - 5+ token players

The margin of error of these polls is ~6% which means that F2P no (0) token players could be as high as 41% of the iToS population or as low as 29% of the iToS population. The same applies to the other results but with a lower bound on 0 [i.e. it is impossible for negative 5% of the population to be 3 token players]

It is also important to note that the results of these polls come only from these forums. I am assuming that most of the people here are more hardcore fans of imc/ToS and are more likely to pony up money. So keep in mind that the 2,3,4,5+ token players are probably overestimated and the F2P players are probably underestimated. (Thanks @12ahl3!)


What does this all mean for iToS?

Based on these results one might say, oh hey look! Things aren’t so bad! It looks like ~8% of the player population is providing ~40% of all tokens, which should cover the ~35% of F2P players who will want to buy tokens.

In my mind though, this distribution is scary! ~8% of the population is supposedly spending $90+ dollars a month on tokens!! What in the world happens if just 1% or 2% or 3% of those players leave? If it’s just 3% of those players leaving then we already have a deficit situation where ~5% of the F2P will be hard pressed to find any tokens. The other problem is that the token purchases are not well distributed. There are hardly any 2,3, or 4 token buyers so they cannot really be expected to help alleviate the token demand when ■■■■ hits the fan. So over time, token silver prices will climb (there will likely be price crashes here and there in price like all markets), but that eventually token price will become so ridiculous that F2P player will just quit because the situation has converged on a P2W scenario.

The other thing to note, is that if ~8% of the population is selling ~40% of all tokens then they are going to have a lot more in-game money than pretty much anyone else. That means their attributes will be higher, they will have more purchasing power, they will be able to manipulate markets more easily by buying out items and then slowly selling them at more profitable margins (limited to 5 entries on the market of course, but they’ll have time). I’m not saying this necessarily will happen, but we are talking about human nature here…


Is there precedence??

Here is what has happened in EVE online which instituted a similar service (PLEX)

PLEX in EVE is basically 30 days of game play time in an in-game tradeable form. So players could buy PLEX and sell it to other players for the in-game currency ISK.

This is similar to how players will be able to buy Tokens and and sell them for silver to other players.

Why is plex getting so high so fast lately?
Why are plex prices rising so fast?

Current PLEX price: ~1+ billion ISK
2012 PLEX price: ~260+ million ISK per PLEX (see graphs)

Here is a chart of PLEX prices over just one year

DISCLAIMER: Tokens are different from PLEX in the sense that you can continue playing the game even without a Token… but that also just means that you can continue grinding for more silver to try to save up to buy tokens. Inflation, hoarding, and relative lack of supply is likely what drove PLEX prices up and are likely factors which will be at play in this game as well.

Note: imc will likely have no desire or interest to keep Token prices down because they want players to spend money buying Tokens


What can/should be done??

Basically controls need to be put in place. Here is what I would probably recommend:

1) Make tokens cost less in real life (increases supply)

2) Prevent excessive hoarding of tokens by individual players (token hoarding caps of maybe 3 or 4 per account would be reasonable)

#2 is not as bad of an issue as previously thought

There is still the possibility of people pre-hoarding when they expect an increase in token prices Thanks for pointing this out! @nizidr

3) Take steps to prevent excessive in-game currency inflation (better start coming up with some good gold sinks imc!)

#3 also appears to have a partial solution

Otherwise we might as well call Tokens P2W because normal F2P players will not be able to afford them. This may become increasingly true as time passes by.


Other complications I didn’t really factor in:

This analysis is also complicated by the fact that some fraction of those 1 token buying players will presumably want to switch to using in-game funds to buy tokens at some point (not everyone is okay with paying ~$18 a month for an mmo to be ‘competitive’). They will have a higher starting leverage point in terms of purchasing power because of additional dungeon runs and ability to sell more on the market. This will further make life not fun for F2P players.

@nizidr makes another great point regarding this issue:


Closing and disclaimers:

Disclaimer: I have invested $10 into iToS so far to check out the founders month. We’ll see how things go and how receptive imc are to feedback.

As always, feedback is much appreciated. I have tried to be unbiased in my analysis, but feel free to point out bias where you see it. I would also love to be wrong about this analysis so if I’ve overlooked anything major that changes everything, please feel free to talk about it below!


Tl;dr:

Prediction 1: iToS token purchases are unbalanced which will lead to increasing token prices over time

Prediction: iToS token implementation will not be sustainable for F2P players in the mid to long term. Those players will likely quit once prices reach a back breaking point (in my opinion).

Maybe we don’t care about what happens to iToS over the mid to long term. If so, just ignore this post.


Staff shoutout!

@Staff_Julie, @STAFF_Ethan, @STAFF_John, @STAFF_Shawn, @STAFF_Ines


Special special thanks to @Elysion who really provided a TON of really important information regarding the token trading system and markets (scroll down to see their comments)

23 Likes

Reserved

I can’t believe I just spent that much time writing this up…

EDIT: Nobody even complimented me for my alliterating title! Easily the most time consuming part of this post! T_T

7 Likes

Liked for good analyses.

I expect 5% of playerbase supplying 40% of tokesn altough.
^^

And hopefully token price will be lowered and people who bought, will get a bonus amount.

The demand can’t be aloweed to outweight the supply… or the spiral will start endlessly getting worse xD.

But anyways.

Let’s hope lot’s of things don’t happen and othe rthings do happen~

1 Like

Pretty much based on current trends and implementations of the token system. I would be willing to bet you real money that over half a year to a year, we’ll be seeing token silver prices going up quite a bit if imc does nothing and twiddles their thumbs. (I kind of expect them to do nothing because they want to sell tokens).

EDIT: Supply is already low because do you think joe schmoe mmo player will think $18 is reasonable for the ability to trade and exp bonuses?

EDIT2: What makes you think rich players won’t want to hoard tokens because they see it as a good investment? If they’ve done the same analysis I have, they’ll know that token prices will inevitably go up, especially since inflation in mmos is generally a serious problem.

They will do.

And heck … i will be enticed to hord them too.
Given that the market is so stupid … fi it’s the same as ktos.

Not many trade oportunitys are even worth a look …

I was makeing millions of silver on tradeing in the AH in Icbt2… with the chances to how it works in ktos. I will be happy if i can sell an good drop with an profit. And not just sell it to an npc, because the hassle to set it up would be to big. (and not even being a bad guy there … just reselling japtem … most of the time)

Unlimeted slots is bad… as then peopel onyl use it as garbage tank.
But 1~5 and delay in money transer + max/min regulation on price… is just laughable.

The reason why I put up these polls in the first place was because I don’t believe that the kToS population and the iToS population will have the same purchasing and buying habits and tolerances.

So any assumptions about how the markets will be based on kToS experience, I say toss it out. The fact that the mmos that are most successful in Korea are already different from the mmos that are most successful in the west is already testament to the fact that the populations have different preferences

So just because it happened in kToS really doesn’t mean a thing for what will happen in iToS. My analysis is NOT based off of any kToS data. I see that as an advantage since what I want to characterize is iToS player behaviors with respect to tokens.

2 Likes

very good analysis
i heard the token price inflation has already happened in ktos
the token price was used to be just 1mil but now its 2mil cuz people were leaving (probably the valk server where many international players were at)

While a good analysis based on the information you have available, the information you don’t have available may prove to be essential. You might prove to be correct, here, what you’re saying is definitely plausible.

I have two things to add that I think you should consider:

  • That the poll may not be an accurate reflection of player expenditures, and

  • That 1 billion ISK isn’t as much as it sounds, to a player who has reached endgame in some fashion.

On the first note, one thing you should consider are impulse buys, that is, individuals who suddenly find themselves in need of quick silver, who did not plan on buying tokens to sell when they were polled.

The profound effect of impulse buys on industry and sales is difficult to overstate - entire sales philosophies have sprung into being around it. It is the reason the snacks by the checkout line are so hopelessly overpriced by the amount you get for them. People lose the judgment they think they have when presented with these options. If anyone reading this doubts what I’m saying, simply repeat " 'Murica" in your head until it makes sense. But it works anywhere in the world, really. I can’t predict exactly how many more tokens this will provide, but I can guarantee it will be a measurable effect.

To talk about EVE for a moment, the economic situations between these two games are not at all comparable. EVE had an established player base with massive reserves of ISK years before PLEX was introduced. The wealthy, elite Corporations (EVE’s guilds) who functionally owned most of the game’s star-systems and lucrative resources after years of warfare transitioned, in the span of one month, from their member bases paying monthly subs, to buying PLEX. Of course the prices rose meteorically. ToS couldn’t see rises that fast without starting with a saturated, seasoned (and arguably pre-inflated) economy.

Another factor in the rise of PLEX’s price were players convincing other players to come back and play by paying for their subscriptions with ISK. In a game where sheer numbers win fights and hold territory, the effect of the “PLEX reserve forces” was rather profound.

Moreover, one billion ISK looks like an unbelievable sum until you realize just how quickly a trained battleship or marauder pilot can produce sums of this order running L4 missions. I was never the best at EVE, but I could produce enough ISK to pay for my account for a month in a matter of days, after I had the skills to fly a Paladin.

Fresh new F2P players will absolutely not be able to afford tokens until they approach endgame. But at that point, much as it was with EVE, it will become feasible to do by using a high level character to grind valuables.

Tokens at 2mil aren’t as much as you think they are. Not at 200+.

4 Likes

18 dollars is just too high for a monthly sub. There is alot of competition out there for MMO’s these days and if they want the limited spending money most(not all players) have to spend each month then they have to give me a good reason to. Starting off the price should be the same or lower then other MMO subs. After that you should look into the benefits. I agree tokens shouldn’t be P2W but that being said the current bonuses just aren’t that enticing. They need to add more to it, maybe a random box each month with the chance at different token exclusive costumes/adornments. Maybe a small chunk of Tp. Something.

I think they should lower the token price in USD to an equivalent of a pay to play game sub. They’re losing a lot of potential buyers over a tiny difference in USD simply because of how we perceive value. I’m quite sure they’d make more money overall matching FFXIV, for example.

1 Like

I think the polls are probably an overestimation of player expenditures, because people who come to this forum are more likely to be big fans of this game. This makes the problem worse.

True, however, I personally find it hard to say that $18-20 expenditures would be impulse. But we can agree to disagree. The other factor that I think will make Tokens less likely of an impulse buy is that it will usually take some time for a token to sell. When I think of impulse buying, I think Warframe where you buy some platinum and bam stuff gets instantly done. Buying a token is a more drawn out process. But you could be right… we’ll just have to see.

True… but

  1. We’ll have to see how much wealth players can build up in a month of founders time
  2. I completely agree with you that EVE has a lot of differences compared to iToS. In EVE you can go into null sec space and do highly lucrative (if risky) mining which is how you would likely pay in part for PLEX as a F2P player. I don’t see similar options for F2P new players in iToS. How much patience will they have trying to get to lvl 200+ without token bonuses? I don’t think they’ll have that much patience, but I could be wrong.

One big unanswered question is:
How much faster will someone who can make 5 market trades a day and who can run twice as many dungeons make in terms of in-game currency? If it vastly outstrips F2P player earning potential then we will have problems.

EDIT: EVE also had a dedicated economist if I remember correctly who tried to keep things balanced and inflation from getting crazy and PLEX inflation still happened. iToS doesn’t even have that…

2 Likes

[quote=“chronosanct, post:11, topic:155526, full:true”]
I think the polls are probably an overestimation of player expenditures, because people who come to this forum are more likely to be big fans of this game. This makes the problem worse.[/quote]
Or we’re laboring under a vocal minority who don’t at all represent the spending habits of your normal, employed, first-world steam user. I still can hear the screams from when the early ToS player-base, expecting a free ride, realized they were targeting steam users with credit cards as their primary audience. Music to my ears.

[quote=“chronosanct, post:11, topic:155526, full:true”]One big unanswered question is:
How much faster will someone who can make 5 market trades a day and who can run twice as money dungeons make in terms of in-game currency? If it vastly outstrips F2P player earning potential then we will have problems.[/quote] Hard to predict. I’d expect they’ll bring in silver at least three times as fast, if they’re aggressive market users.

Yep, mostly because of the “missions” I told you about. They were quite lucrative, although most of a mission runners income still came from selling things to players. As inflation rose, the value of selling things to players rose with it, and the relative value of mission ISK rewards fell, so it kind of balanced… Kind of.

2 Likes

I just want to say that if prices for tokens do go up really high because of demand, I’ll probably occasionally buy some tokens to make some extra silver. Others probably will to. This would also help with supply. Maybe i should have picked 2 tokens a month…

We can agree to disagree on the points above. I stand by my analysis and time will tell. Maybe I was worried over nothing, wouldn’t that be great. But I see enough red flags that I think it would be good to be prudent. What do you think? Would it be better to assume everything works until it doesn’t? Or is it better to be careful only to find out there was no need to be?

Since you’ve been had good though provoking comments I was wondering about your thoughts on the 5+ token buyers using their wealth to manipulate markets or hoard tokens? I personally see it as being a possible issue.

EDIT: I would add that I don’t see nearly as many imc apologists and white knights on other general mmo forums. So that’s gotta be biasing the polls in some way. That’s just my opinion of course, everything is :slight_smile:

Well don’t let what I wrote influence you. Because a vast vast majority of the iToS population will never read my post. The results as I posted them were when most were clueless as to what I was doing are as representative as I can promise. (and even then I’m sure it’s not representative of the general population of mmo players who will be able to compare the iToS value preposition to other mmos and who are not so loyal to imc/iToS as the forum goers)

Another thing i want to say is i actually do hope they reduce the price somewhat. The more i have to spend on tokens, the less i can spend on cosmetics and stuff. I’m thinking $10-12 would be good.

1 Like

Adding more benefits to token subscription will only make the problem I predict worse…

The most realistic solution to this problem I think, is to reduce token price by half. $18 --> $9. So people who were planning to get 1 token per month now can afford 2 tokens, 1 for themselves 1 for the F2P community. This would double supplies, and alleviate some of the token demand. However, full resolution to this issue will never be possible because $ is always short, especially in the midst of a (real people) global depression.

Token in game price will keep climbing like PLEX does and some of the F2P players will never have access to it. (not enough time, not enough currency).

2 Likes

It still doesn’t prevent the possibility that richer players could buy up tokens and hoard them to drive prices up. This would probably not be nearly as bad as in EVE because in EVE you have to have PLEX in order to play. But in iToS you don’t have to have tokens to play (though I feel they kind of provide pretty big bonuses).

I also have issues with a possible ~8% of the population selling ~40% of the tokens to F2P players. How much richer will they be? How much more market and purchasing power will they have? I don’t know, but I don’t think the answers would be pretty…

These are all reasons why I think there needs to be a cap on how many tokens a person can hoard and token purchasing limits… That said I totally don’t see imc doing either. Because their goal is to presumably sell tokens, economy and F2P players be damned.

There’s a limit to what you can buy with in game silver. There will come a point where you can buy anything the in game economy sells but nothing that you need. A few players will hold most of the in game silver but it will likely be sunken into attribute.

I’m not too worried about a few players getting too much in game silver. It’s a game and doesn’t affect people’s lives, just game progression.