Would 0 HP recovery time help +200 swordies?

[c2gaming]

So the international swordies are experiencing what the koreans already figured out in ktos. Swordies have some “issues” at higher levels. I leave you to research what those issues are specifically (if you want to know more).

The following is a mix of opinion and fact. Please distinguish 1 from the other before commenting on something specific
Swordies are not durable enough to stay in melee. People have said swordies get more HP because they have to stay in melee . That extra HP however does not help if you have no way to get that hp back after losing it. Saying “pots” makes you no different from the guy with a third of your max HP. Saying “bonfire” is not relevant while in combat (though I have seen some people sit though a phase of combat leaving the rest of the party to do the work - guilty of this myself).

Now for my point. Would having 0 HP recovery time help +200 swordies or would it be moot? For reference here are 2 videos showcasing having 0 HP recovery time using lv 15[aukuras] and lv 5 squire food buffs.

This krivis demo shows off a lv 280 krivis with 429 HP recovery. At 17816 max HP, that is about 2.4% HP recovered per sec.

This group demo on the other hand shows off multiple players with different HP recovery each. The notable 1 would be the pelt with 1131 HP recovery. At 73024 max HP that is about 1.5% HP recovered per sec.

In each case, considering a healing tile is at least 5% max HP on a 22sec cd, each would recover 52.8%(9438 HP) and 33% (24882 HP). That’s a lot.

Hypothetically, what if [pain barrier] had an attribute that could provide a swordie with -10 HP recovery time? Would that be asking for too much/too little?

[subjecttovary]

I think it would be a little too much.

HP Recovery is a big deal, even though its a difficult stat to raise. A lot of people only think about solo builds and only think about min/maxing damage.

Having extremely low recovery time + high recovery means that swordies in general, regardless of build, would be able to use no potions when grinding and have an extremely high recovery rate.

ToS is a game built on synergy. If you want to be really tanky like the person in that video, find people who have builds that complement yours.

It would be extremely exploitable with the way the current recovery time mechanic works if there were 0 HP recovery times on normal swordies by default.

Also, with the exception of magic which is an issue (which requires better damage reduction rather than changing the HP recovery system), you can manually block attacks as a Peltasta and a highlander. Most of the swordsman tree has some kind of beneficial damage reduction mechanic as well, although they require some stacking and careful crafting to be useful.

Manually blocking without being the AFK-tank requires some mechanical skill, but it is extremely useful in survival and if you time blocks, you get to weave in damage skills as well without being a brick in the party.

What I would like to see more is Pain Barrier having attributes for Damage Reduction and for complete CC immunity, because there is no reason for someone so tanky to be perma-CC’d in Main Chamber/Grand Chapel or whatever.

[c2gaming]

Having extremely low recovery time + high recovery means that swordies in general, regardless of build, would be able to use no potions when grinding and have an extremely high recovery rate.

But take note, this is already possible on a class that also has [heal]. Lets look at the krivis without squire food. That krivis would still be recovering 0.48% max HP (~85 HP) per sec on a class that can heal 50% max HP every 22 sec. Why allow the regen on 1 class (that doesn’t even need it) but prevent it on a class that does need it?

It would be extremely exploitable with the way the current recovery time mechanic works if there were 0 HP recovery times on normal swordies by default.

But it’s “exploitable” now (on a class that can heal itself no less).

Also, with the exception of magic which is an issue (which requires better damage reduction rather than changing the HP recovery system), you can manually block attacks as a Peltasta and a highlander. Most of the swordsman tree has some kind of beneficial damage reduction mechanic as well, although they require some stacking and careful crafting to be useful.

Manually blocking without being the AFK-tank requires some mechanical skill, but it is extremely useful in survival and if you time blocks, you get to weave in damage skills as well without being a brick in the party.

Block is really only useful for unavoidable hits like wide boss swings, homing/instant travel projectiles. Not being in the area when the attack lands is more useful, something non-blocking catas demonstrate very well (amazing move speed with trot).

What I would like to see more is Pain Barrier having attributes for Damage Reduction and for complete CC immunity, because there is no reason for someone so tanky to be perma-CC’d in Main Chamber/Grand Chapel or whatever.

Dispeller scrolls on the market give exactly that and yet you wish to give that to swordies. How is that different from asking for 0 HP recovery time (something that is already currently possible “alone” on a class that can heal no less).

As far as damage reduction is concered, that could be a defining characteristic for the swordie just as much as massive hp recovery.

[subjecttovary]

HP is a lot easier to stack than defense, HP recover with 3x hp scaling would be a lot different than taking less damage for this reason.

Kirvis may be able to heal well, but that’s their/Cleric’s job. Swordies can also purchase Aukuras / Restoration scrolls from the market if they want to, so using your example I’m not seeing how it’s different either.

A Kirvis healing itself also isn’t as big of a deal because unless they go full CON (they’re most likely scaling SPR) they aren’t going to have that much HP and unless they are going Cleric 2/3 they aren’t going to heal for that much health.

On the otherhand, with minimum investment in Con, I already have like 13k (50 con) HP and 18k with Swashbuckling active (100% uptime if I’m diligent). The video demonstrates how ridiculous Swordie HP can get as well, so having a completely self-sufficient healing mechanism by default would be much stronger than taking somewhat less damage.

[c2gaming]

Kirvis may be able to heal well, but that’s their/Cleric’s job. Swordies can also purchase Aukuras / Restoration scrolls from the market if they want to, so using your example I’m not seeing how it’s different either.

So there’s no difference in asking for an HP recovery time decrease for swordies. In that can we stick to the topic of HP recovery helping or not (specifically -10 sec for swordie, the base class and not the entire line of swordies).

A Kirvis healing itself also isn’t as big of a deal because unless they go full CON (they’re most likely scaling SPR) they aren’t going to have that much HP and unless they are going Cleric 2/3 they aren’t going to heal for that much health.

On the otherhand, with minimum investment in Con, I already have like 13k (50 con) HP and 18k with Swashbuckling active (100% uptime if I’m diligent).

See, the example I cited is a c1 cleric c3 krivis. C1 clerics have 10 healing tiles every 22sec should they use the overheat as well. Not counting INT, that’s 50% max hp. How much HP they have is only relevant in this case because [heal] scales off max HP too. HP recovery on the other hand scales off CON and character lv and is equal among all the base classes. The swordie’s HP multiplier plays no part here.

The video demonstrates how ridiculous Swordie HP can get as well, so having a completely self-sufficient healing mechanism by default would be much stronger than taking somewhat less damage.

Again, how much HP the pelt has is irrelevant in terms of HP recovery. And btw, % reduction will still be much stronger than HP recovery because the effect is instant with % reduction vs recovery still requiring time. But again, I ask that we stick to HP recovery.

[subjecttovary]

The base class is the entire line of swordies. All of them have to have the base class.

HP recovery is relevant in regards to other stats. HP recovery by itself means nothing if you have low max HP, since they obviously scale together.

Using clerics as an example (which is what you did with Kirvis first), is why I mentioned Clerics and their max HP is relevant in a conversation about HPR which directly affects MHP and is useless without a decent amount of it.

Healing is good, but it’s also limited to cleric type classes and you can’t buy healing scrolls off of market either. This is comparing it recovering 1.3k HP every 10 seconds (its 20 if standing) or constantly (10s when sitting, -10 sec = 0 + additional recovery ticks from bonfire). Your suggestion would make it so when around Aukuras, which you can buy, you’d have a constant 1.3k recovery at all times since you’d have 0s standing HPR.

That’s Diablo 3 Life Per Sec without the same difficulty curves or itemization. That would trounce any need for anyone healing you at all ever, you probably wouldn’t even need to sit. Combine this with both DPS and tank swordies being able to block (cross guard/guard attribute) and you’re not really taking any damage from anything.

[c2gaming]

HP recovery is relevant in regards to other stats. HP recovery by itself means nothing if you have low max HP, since they obviously scale together.

No they don’t. I can raise max HP without raising HP recovery and vise versa.

Using clerics as an example (which is what you did with Kirvis first), is why I mentioned Clerics and their max HP is relevant in a conversation about HPR which directly affects MHP and is useless without a decent amount of it.

You seem to not know the formula for both MHP and HPR
MHP = (Class Multiplier * ((Level - 1) * 17)) + CON * 85
See how HPR is no where in that equation
HPR = (Level * 0.5 + CON)
See how MHP is no where in that equation

HPR does not affect MHP in any way.

The reason for even mentioning MHP is because that is what [heal] is scaled with and 0 time HPR would be “competing” with it. It was to set [heal] as a reference point. Nothing more.

To simplify
10 healing tiles is at least 50% MHP healed every 22sec or 2.27% MHP healed per sec vs 2.4% HP recovered per sec in case 1 and 1.5% HP recovered per sec in case 2.

Healing is good, but it’s also limited to cleric type classes and you can’t buy healing scrolls off of market either. This is comparing it recovering 1.3k HP every 10 seconds (its 20 if standing) or constantly (10s when sitting, -10 sec = 0 + additional recovery ticks from bonfire). Your suggestion would make it so when around Aukuras, which you can buy, you’d have a constant 1.3k recovery at all times since you’d have 0s standing HPR.

Yes. Exactly that. With numbers from case 2, the pelt would need a little over a minute of not taking damage “to get to full”. Case 2 also shows the pelt is not some immortal HPR machine, she was still losing HP faster than recovering it.

That’s Diablo 3 Life Per Sec without the same difficulty curves or itemization. That would trounce any need for anyone healing you at all ever, you probably wouldn’t even need to sit. Combine this with both DPS and tank swordies being able to block (cross guard/guard attribute) and you’re not really taking any damage from anything.

Now this I find rather disturbing. This seems to imply that you are not a +200 swordie because you think swordie DPS and having the ability to block are enough at that stage of the game. Are you?

[subjecttovary]

1.) Talking about value of HPR. Having 1k HPR and 1k max HP is useless. HPR is more value with the higher value of Max HP. I don’t know how you are going to argue that point any further.

That’s like saying Critical rate is valuable by itself without any actual physical damage.

You can have 1000 critical rate, but if you scale off magic attack, it does nothing. You don’t get HPR from Max HP, but why have HPR with low Max HP?

There’s no way I can reiterate that point to make any more sense. If you need that to be clarified, I can link you to some descriptions about the value of stat points. Even League of Legends or Diablo guides would adequately illustrate this point, because these stats are closely intertwined in every single game they’re in.

High HPR is important for recovering HP, which you have to have for it to be recovered and you don’t need a lot of it or a faster tick rate if you don’t have a lot of it.

The thing is Swordies do have a lot of it, 3x the amount anyone else has +25% if you’re a peltasta. Having really high HPR + really low HPR recov rate = really fast, really high health regen = no need for healer or potions. 1.1k HPR already is stronger than a level 8 concentrated HP pot and almost as strong as level 10 concentrated hp pots, but it would tick at 0 seconds which is faster.

Competing with clerics for their most valuable trait (being able to heal), is EXTREMELY BAD. Clerics are valuable in a broad sense because they can heal and others cannot. If you took that away from them, what is the use of having them? You can already buy their useful buffs from Pardoners.

2.) “A little over a minute” to get full HP is ridiculous. It’s extremely ridiculously fast regen for that much HP and already taking very little physical damage. If it’s active constantly, which it would be, at that rate you wouldn’t even have to worry about magic damage. Something hitting 3k damage on you wouldn’t even matter because you’d be perpetually recovering at all times.

3.) I’m level 152, but that does not matter. This is not a “have you experienced this level of gameplay yet” matter, because I can obviously read testimonials from those players and discover what it is like without having to have experienced it myself.

The point of the matter is that would be broken and there’s better ways to combat that issue than breaking HPR.

[nuzulspyware08]

how to achieve 0 recovery time?
aukuras lv 15 gives -15 hp recovery time, normal recovery time is 20s so where’s the 5 seconds?

[Delcas]

No thats Krivis territory.
You are not an island.

[subjecttovary]

Exactly.

Effective HP is what is being talked about here. You make these people completely useless with this proposed change.

[c2gaming]

The remaining 5 sec comes from lv 5 squire food.

It seems to me people are under the impression that swordies can’t do this “by themselves”. They can. [Aukuras] can be bought as a scroll while squire food is offered by the squire’s [refreshment table]. These things already make “those classes” useless. You can “become an island” in the current state of the game.

This is primarily about the question “Does it help?”. This isn’t theory crafting how much is/isn’t needed. This is about questioning if using the feature 0 HP recovery time (that is already in the game) helps alleviate the difficulty experienced by a lot of swordies +200.

[Randy]

It helps; although it might be hard to look for people who level their Aukuras to lvl 15 -and- become Pardoner C3 for the sake of selling lvl 15 Aukuras scrolls. Krivis C3 is great for burst AOE, it’s a waste to pick Pardoner C3 unless they know what they’re doing.

Speaking of Aukuras, my build has it at max lvl but we won’t meet each other anytime soon since I play in idTOS.

[silverguy]

Sorry I skipped most of the long post… But I would suggest some hp drain skill at swordsman would help. Maybe an active skill that enable hp drain on hit. Skill extended to swordsman 3 wit max lv15. Higher level longer duration or cooldown.

[c2gaming]

Well hopefully word gets out and more people like it and take it to sell.

The silver lining is that if anyone is selling lv 5 [daino] scrolls, then they can sell lv 5 (5 is enough for -10 sec then the remaining 10 sec can be reduced by lv 10 squire food).

I have a paladin build in the works. It’s either c2-k1-p3-pard. Having only 1 rank in pard means I can only get up to lv 5 [daino],[aukuras], and [barrier]. My only problem now is “In what order di I take p3-pard”. But thats OT already.

[Zultark]

Krivis + Paladin build would make the HP regeneration way more op (105 from aukuras + 337 max from restoration) each second.

Hp regen is fine (scaling on heal tides is amazing, and passiv hp regen from dedicated class brings some interresting synergies). Healing isn’t an issue as long as you have a cleric support (and i doubt you’d go to earth tower without one).

One of the things we need as a swordies right now is to reduce the incoming damages from magic attacks. But then again, i don’t know how magic defense works, maybe magic isn’t a problem at all with a good gear (I’ve never upgraded necklace or rings atm).
On the other hand, undodgeable physical attacks : we should have a chance to dodge / block it (somes cannot even be blocked), with a reduced ratio, or something, but this would make us way tankier.

Last of all, swordies NEED more dps since there are a lot of classes dps-based in swordies archetype. For exemple, you can guess dopplesoendler isn’t made to tank (Deeds of valor increasing incoming damages) but more an offtank max. But seeing how IMC adapts itself to the needs of community, I have no doubt they’ll find a way to make it viable soon or later

[Randy]

This. If the drain comes from your own skill, it’s fine. The problem is when the dev decides to create gears with HP-drain attribute (think Aura Kingdom’s Nocturnal gears). Those will be “must-haves” then. No good.

… Wait, we’ve got Featherfoot already.

Well hopefully word gets out and more people like it and take it to sell.

The Cleric community often urge people not to level Aukuras too high, saying it’s garbage.

[Delcas]

Except you’re not, you’re utilizing the Pardoner class to achieve buffs for yourself which puts you into interaction with the economy. Then taking the Squires food buff as well.

You’re not an island you’re dealing with the repercussions of other people and classes being in this game and can utilize them to make yourself better. There’s little justification for Swordsman to have this capability inherit to itself especially given their previous statements on Priest v Krivis where they acknowledged that everyone not being able to do certain aspects was part of what they were striving for (and they acknowledged that Pardoner replicated this).

A common MMO design of melee combatants is that their dps is high or as high as ranged counterparts specifically because encounter design is made to force the melee away from the enemy creating downtime which drops their dps in line with the ranged. I don’t see what you’re instilling other then just making Peltasta picks more fruitful.

[silverguy]

well i think item drain still able to roll out. probably with lower effect. ie: sword get 30-45%. meanwhile item only max 15-20%. probably not stackable. so ideally swordsman will have enough self substain hp on battle. and those non swordsman class ie cleric could get some love. honestly speaking cleric have HEALS. i doubt they do really care much.

hp drain is workable in pvp side as in you need to HIT to drain hp. guess no one would stand there to let swordsman to hit for free. anyway developer could halve the effect in pvp.

i strongly believe any swordsman at high level would take this changes

[c2gaming]

@Zultark
Meh, I wouldn’t touch the dps issue with a 10 foot pole. It’s too delicate for me. Say 1 thing, it riles up 1 group. Say something else, it riles up another group.

@Randy
Eyeah, I’m in the same boat really. I like what the skill tries to do. I hate what it actually does (skill progression specifically). 1-5 gets you -10 sec while 6-10 and 11-15 only gets you -2.5 sec each. That is messed up but as messed up as I think that is, the silver lining is “I only need lv 5 scrolls”.

So let’s say lv 5 [aukuras] cost maybe 5k, would you take it to a “spot” in addition to pots?

@Delcas
Well then that falls into a discussion of what an island is. That isn’t what the thread is for. I’m not here to debate what an island is, what contributes to interaction with the economy and what not.

Btw, it is possible to make my own lv 5 aukuras scrolls and not interact with anyone at all. Still an island (my definition anyway, but again I’m not here to debate that).