Tree of Savior Forum

No one need you if you are not a Peltasta

Class and Rank Swordsman
#164

On the Musketeer video, dat Featherfoot 42K HP tho haha , poor corsair only 20K hp :laughing:

Seriously The guys who say “Nah but Swordies have really high HP, that why he is EXTREMALY Out Dpsed by mages and archers, AND EVEN FOR CLERICS”.

Con is definitely the Strongest Atribute, Some mages/clerics don’t give a single ■■■■ about their int and go Con 4-5 , Int 1 AND STILL DEALING 2-3X Swordies High STR and High DEX DPS.

To really think that Swordies DMG is OK, is simple intellectual dishonesty or maybe ignorance. :wink:

7 Likes
#165

Hp leeching for all swordsman class will make my day XD

2 Likes
#166

Yes man HP Drain or Some Strong HP Regen Self-Buff would be something logical and would make swordies more viable.

2 Likes
#167

Well, does all wizards go linker? chronomancer? elementalist?
does all archers go cannoneer? musketeer? quarrelshooter?
does all clerics go priest? oracle? plague doctor?

I don’t think so. Their builds are more diverse and they still find their place in parties =)

Why only swordsman is forced to go peltast to be useful?

1 Like
#168

Cos Dev wan u to reroll other classes and make ur swordie to be blacksmith :stuck_out_tongue:

#169

It’s “technically” in the game already. See this video and proceed here if you wanna talk about it.

#170

You know

when I first make my Swordman, I fully aware that Melle DPS cant hope to compete with those of ranged DPS.
Just being in Melle ranged require me to allocate stats to many diffrent categories. I fully aware the very limitation of chosing the way of the sword (or fence in mycase)
Need STR so can deal awesome dmg, oh I want to Crit and dodge too to survive, Darn I ofc Need HP to be able to deal DPS without die / interupted by random AOE, Now need to up some SPR for block Penetration and hopefully adaquate magic def.

that sum up my initial impresion.
and I come to the conclusion that while you can make What ever build you want and Like, whether its going to work - its not always be the case

But, that just me. trying to grasp the character I will be playing for 200+ hours.
I come to the conclusion, even before I playing it. that Swordman require more balanced status distribution - thus coupled with the fact that it was melle, plus coupled with very egoistic debuff and buff, I need to pick a tree with some utilities to offer in party play.

I got 2 friends, currently reroll into difrent class from Sworman. because at some point in our party, they aware they put the party in constant “disarray” whenever we do party together. something that they dont get to catch on when leveling solo. thats the benefit of having playing with friends, so everyone can disscuss and improve on something.

My regret would be chose barbarian 3 over squire. I keep thinking all barbarian 3 skill were crap, and picking squire might help with the problem that my Fencing weapon have durability of toothpick

#171

So lets assume wizard has more useful party builds than swordman - so what? Classes are different, that is not a bad thing.

Recent MMO’s tend to make every class work the same, just slapping different names and visuals on very slight variations of the mechanics. If you want that, play one of those games.

From my understanding this is (outlined very roughly) how classes differ:

Swordman class solos well, but struggles in a party unless you spec for it. Wiz and Cleric struggle solo unless forgoing options to be useful in a group, but have more options to benefit a party. Archers have many flavors of dps, but lack support and apparently suck in pvp.

Why only swordsman is forced to go peltast to be useful?

Really, peltasta1 is NOT a big investment. Compare that to the commitment a mage has to make when going chrono3. Or a full spr cleric, try even getting that to lvls where people group up. You would probably quit before reaching 4th circle…

#172

I agree that peltasta1 is not a big investment, but i dont like the idea of swordsman being labeled ONLY as tanks/meat shield =/… People are complaining so much about swordies dps at higher levels…

Why they created classes like dragoon? doppelsoeldner? If you’re going to be a meat shield anyways… Sad but true… Swordies are weak… only useful for the taunt, for convenience at higher levels… you can even go swordsman c3 -> peltast c3 -> highlander(stupid build)… it doesnt matter hahahaha

3 Likes
#173

But you can also go for s1-pelt2(or pelt1/hop1)-rodel2 into any combination of cataphract, fencer, templar, pelt3, rode3, corsair, more hoplite etc…

There are lots of valid and cool tank builds out there that nobody is playing because swordmen just feel so damn good when you play that hl-barb solo.

Swordman have a lots of cool solo builds that are well rounded but lack at contributing to a group. This includes hl, barb, hoplite, corsair, doppel and many more

Swordman also have a lot of cool tank builds that can go as deep into tanking and supporting as you want to(cata for more ms, rode3 for additional strike debuff, pelt 3 for MOAR TAUNT, corsair for that flag buff, templar/squire just because you can etc)

And if you want a build that is an awesome solo but can still group you just pick up peltasta1 at lvl 14-16 and go on with your awesome solo build.

Swordman class does not have a balance problem.

The only reason why groups are ok with taking dps+pelt1(or swordman3/pelt3/hl to use your example) along is because much less swordmen go for a dedicated grp support/tank build than wizards/clerics do. And archers don’t even have the option to tank, why should swordmen also outdo them in damage?

#174

To summarize my previous posts in here:

Swordman class is fine as it is.

Swordman class has a wide variety of solo builds that rank among the best ingame.

Swordman class also has a wide variety of tank/support builds, which usually include at least a single rank of Peltasta.

For players who like to solo swordman class is a treasure trove of various builds. Which is why a lot of players go for the former kind of swordman build.

For people who want to commit themselves to make a group based build, classes like wizard and cleric seem the obvious choices, which is why there are not a lot of players going for the latter kind of swordman build.

Now TOS sadly by the way it is designed does not really encourage group play(outside of instanced dungeons) in the early (1-150) levels. This goes even more for builds capable of soloing well - why would they bother with a group if they are more effective alone. - solo builds profit

Once you get to the later levels though, party play becomes more and more common. Now of course, by the same logic solo players were playing alone before, parties prefer to take people who can actually contribute. - party builds profit

The problem, which this thread is trying to discuss is in my opinion only percieved because the perspective is screwed.

The problem is not that all Swordmen need to pick Peltasta to stay relevant in later party play.

Rather players who play solo a lot will play Swordmen, usually builds without Peltasta. Because Swordmen are great at soloing - especially the builds without Peltasta.

Those players now hit the wall of “oh damn party play is awesome now, but i couldn’t contribute much to a party if my life depended on it because I specialized my build to be a strong solo character”. Honestly? You get what you signed up for. You played an awesome solo build that is still awesome at soloing. It is just that grouping up gets better than soloing. You want in on that? Make a build that can contribute. Very much unlike op presents this, the variety of such builds is great, even in Swordman class.

TL;DR;
You were not forced into anything. You committed to a build that was awesome for 200 levels and now gets less awesome. In reaction you look down on the other players that had a hard time getting to the point where they are relevant and call them op and demand a rework so you can keep being awesome forever? Don’t be like that. You’re unreasonable.

5 Likes
#175

Well, reading your post, it makes sense. Thanks for contributing to the discussion! I agree with you, that builds like Chrono c3 for example should provide a MUCH higher party play experience at higher levels.

The game indeed has a bad design towards party play in the beginning, i agree that builds like Highlander/Barbarian should do less damage in the endgame (early game they do SO much damage), but classes like Doppelsoeldner, Dragoon, feels so lackluster compared to Warlock-Ele3, Cannoneer… and Warlock-Ele3 is not even hard to lvl in the beginning neither is Cannoneer… (Believe me, i have lvld both). You could say that it is BORING, but hard it isn’t.

We already have our disadvantages like close range, our stat distribution must be done in 3 attributes(str-dex-con)… getting in to the endgame with a class that was supposed to be dps-oriented like Doppelsoelner (that trades defense for damage), and doing less damage than clerics? come on… We aren’t whining like kids here… we have a reason… and IMO builds for party play should not be only about peltast…

For example a Rodelero without peltast would be excluded in the same way, as the other great solo classes like highlander, because the main attraction is ONE single skill. How can you say this game has a wide variety of tank/support builds for swordsman, when in truth they don’t care what class you are… They only care if you have swashbuckling?

I respect your opinion, you made a good statement. I just don’t agree in some parts.

#176

Random question: Are you CBEN Dr4gon?

This is really spot on. Swordsmen have it really easy in terms of survivability for the majority of play. That means that swordsmen over the lifespan of the game have the equivalent of first turn advantage. This allows them to essentially pioneer and gain market advantages faster as an entire class. There’s also the unique bit where only Swordsmen can lead guilds (or at least one must have played a Swordsman).

People are far too obsessed with the very narrow definition of gameplay in an MMO. If all you care about are raids, frankly you should be looking into different types of games where they focus on that kind of content exclusively. If instead you decide to go with the holistic approach, you’ll realize that Swordsmen have all sorts of advantages simply because they tend to get first dibs.

We don’t have to go far for proof. Check the class sections on this forum. Notice how only the Swordsman has stickied guides? That’s the first turn advantage at work, revealing things about our general class faster than other forums. That in turn affects how the average person builds, which is something that you could use your brain to estimate what might actually transpire in the meta or markets.

And again, we control the guilds. We have disproportionate control over some of the strongest social forces in MMOs. Take that as you will.

#177

Constantly comparing oneself to others will only make one angry.

#178

Yes, all Swordman group builds base on at least one level of peltasta. Why is that a bad thing? The less you need to take, the more freedom of choice you have, right? Also, peltasta1 is only good enough for groups, because real tank builds are so damn rare. If more people played dedicated tank, pelt1/dps would only be second choice for most content.

As for doppel. Cyclone is really strong, Double Pay Earn is excellent, and Deeds of Valor gives the strongest Atk buff in the game. Circle 2 may be weak, weak circles are not something that is exclusive to Swordmen.

And if you want to compare Musketeer/Cannoneer, compare them with Dragoon. While the Archer skills might look better from the numbers, most of Dragoons skills are multihit and still get very huge boni, probably resulting in higher damage overall. Also since dragoon has synergy with hoplite/cataphract, while musket/cannon need to use their class specific weapons, which is always a bother, since those may not give optimal stats or makes you have to switch equipment all the time.

@xuancheng

no I’m not. Who is that guy that stole my name?! D:

… getting a lot of gateway errors from forum servers I hope I’m not accidentally tripleposting this for the 3rd time -.-"

#179

Rank 1 Swordsman needs an aoe taunt. Not one as good as pelt, but something.

1 Like
#180

Rank1 Swordman has the provoke attribute and an aoe autoattack. Isn’t that exactly what you are asking for?

#181

I agree with you, that taking peltast 1 is not the hardest thing to do, but still makes builds with highlander, swordsman c2,c3 useless. Real tank builds with all the magic mobs around? Real tank builds will be worthwhile after magic gets nerfed, because right now is broken.

Dragoon numbers may look great, but they won’t scale with anything, unlike Musketeer/Cannoneer skills that have 400%, 300%.

All I want is two different branches in swordsman tree. DPS and Tanks.

DPS can do plenty of damage to be worth a spot in the party.

Tanks will do their jobs with Taunt, block, etc.

Right now, we have only one kind of swordsman: Peltast. (That’s all people care about.). I may sound extreme, but just look at the forums… They don’t care if you’re a Fencer, Dragoon, Doppel, Templar, Squire.

If this is the right way swordsman should work, they could make swordsman tree linear, with only tanks.

2 Likes
#182

I mean a large aoe to pull in dispersed monsters.

#183

Swordman has the possibility to go tank/support - party oriented -, tanky dps - solo oriented -, or any flavor of hybrid of those two you want. If you want a party oriented dps, go for an archer or wizard.

Why should Swordman be able to build for all archetypes? That is not something the other classes can do either - actually tanking is a role unique to Swordmen class.

and @Remlocke

You are contradicting yourself. Basically you want Swordman to get a taunt like peltasta, but you don’t want to articulate it, because you KNOW it is unreasonable…