At first glance, I actually like this system better for my choice of cleric. Previously, there were certain ranks where I didn’t really care for the options and would’ve preferred selecting one of the offerings I didn’t accept earlier on. And now this is more or less reality in the referenced beta. 
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“GvG is to predict what skills one guy could have according his class, so
you can plan strategies and a “counter” way to play against him”
You cannot plan a strategy during battle… Strategy means you approach a battle a certain way, playing reactive is not good at all, you should be prepared for those situations. It’s good to have different characters being able to perform multiple roles as it puts focus on organization and a small roster change doesn’t mess everything up (and getting certain classes is a pain in the arse).
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did anyone find good builds for swordsman archer or wizard classes with this backwards progression?
so far i can only come up with decent builds for cleric classes
i guess its good that the choice is there
New beta version of the skill simulaotr is now available (saving builds is now possible) 
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Swordsman Build - Swordsman C2 or Peltastsa C1 > Hoplite C3 > Barbarian C1 because Savagery OP on Hoplite… like seriously. That’s all you’ll need to know since Pierce and Stabbing will wreck everything in your path. Plus with all of the Critical chances you get from the Finestra buff and Aggressor buff, you’ll be dishing out all the damages. (I just like Hoplite a lot for some odd reason)
Archer Build - Archer C3 > Ranger C3 The true critical Archer 
Critical Attack + Swift Step critical attribute. Also, it has good AoE potential with Ranger C3 (I’m not really good with the archer theorycrafting because I can’t really ever make up my mind)
Wizard Build - Wizard C1 > Pyromancer C2 > Cryomancer C1 > Psychokino C2 I dunno. I try to main Wiz but with the new change, I can’t decide what I want to do. Plus, if you’re not using a mouse (since controlling the creation of walls is harder) you can essentially Build a trap with Ice wall, and put all of your Pyro skills inside the wall and swap a boss into the death zone. If you’re fighting mobs, just use magnetic force into your skills.
There are probably more but I’m a bit too tired to think of anything and I’ve been stuck with my own Wizard build for the whole day.
Care to point out some of these ‘refined’ cookie-cutter builds?
Because take for example, Sword->Highlander->Barb3 route (ignore the fact that some might go Swords 2 if they don’t like Highlander’s skills and just want Restraint as well as stronger buffs), previously you only have Doppel vs Centurion, but with the new system you have Corsair and Squire in the mix too.
From DPS perspective alone, is any of them really, absolutely, superior to the others?
Is Corsair’s flag stronger than Centurion’s formations for party? how about Squire’s weapon buff? Or will Doppel’s extra attack skills and self-buff be able to give more to yourself than those other 3’s for your party?
Corsair flag, Centurion formation and Squire weapon refine are all support skills. The cookie cutter builds i’m referring to, majority of them all have barbarian in them. Swordsman - highlander - Barbarian X3 - Doppel won’t change. Swordsman X2 - Barbarian X2 - Corsair X2 might just become Swordsman X2 - Barbarian X3 - Corsair X2 or Swordsman X2 - Barbarian X2 - Corsair X3 when rank 7 comes out. This still doesn’t break the Barbarian meta that most builds revolve around. Reason being both Aggressor and Flange are in the Barbarian class, with Savagery a bonus if you can use it.
This is getting interesting. I’m not sure if IMC could balance the game but if asking for a balance to make every class more linear sounds pretty dumb really. There’s always the pros and cons. However, if a certain build is OP, like really broken, that is something that IMC should look into.
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I’m not saying there won’t be popular build, or ‘meta’ class, I mean most people pick a class to build around anyway, Barb just happens to be a good class to either build around, or use its buffs as padding to their main class (Savagery + Cataphract is a option)
But, here’s the thing, is it really, absolutely, without any question of if/or/but, THE better one?
You dismissed those ‘support’ skills, but have you really thought about comparing them?
You listed Corsair 2-3 as one of such build, but you don’t give any explanation WHY the Corsair pick in that ‘cookie-cutter’ build? Why not Squire? Why not Centurion?
Because they’re ‘support’? But you also listed the flag as one of the support skills, so what makes it special?
And just a thought.
Using the old system, Corsair C1 + Centurion or Doppel? Is getting that Double Weapon Assault really a DPS increase compare to Deeds of Valor on Doppel? What about the defense reduction effect of Crane Wing formation?
Lastly, you say someone who play swordsman will see it as ‘negative’, but does NOT having this change somehow magically remove those cookie-cutter builds?
I am talking purely in terms of creating DPS builds here.
The reason why I listed them as support skills is because you can obtain those effects even if you don’t have them on your build.
With Corsair’s flag, if you don’t have it just party with another Corsair who has the flag buff.
With Centurion, if you don’t have it just party with another Centurion.
With Squire’s weapon/armor refine, if you don’t have it just buy the buff from a stall in town, or find a party with a Squire in it.
Barbarian’s buffs though, on the other hand, if you didn’t take up Barbarian then you won’t have access to Aggressor/Flange/Savagery. They are buffs unique to Barbarian, hence why Barbarian is so popular.
Corsair’s unique dual wield combined with the Subweapon cancel buff makes it a cookie cutter if you want to create a dual wield build. You can go Corsair C1 + Doppel Deeds of Valor buff, but Deeds of Valor has a defense reduction drawback whereas Subweapon Cancel doesn’t. As for a direct comparison between Deeds vs Subweapon, I guess nobody’s done a direct comparison yet, but that defense reduction drawback is a turnoff, so if Subweapon cancel is a comparable alternative I’d definitely take it instead.
Finally, I should clarify what I mean by “negative”. I meant “negative” in the sense that it does not create variety in builds for the Swordsman class, not in the sense that you can’t add to your current builds. Lack of variety is a serious problem and goes against what the class system in this game is aiming to achieve - variety and choice in builds.
@sebastian_sanders199
Even if the old system is imbalanced there there are boundaries in which you can change things. There are no boundaries in this limitless test system (there is max rank, but it can’t be used for twerking the system).
@rofldat
Again, read a little before you post. It has been written more then once that in regular system you have a range in quality of builds from bad to really powerful but the difference between them isn’t so great that no one would play those bellow average builds. With limitless system extremes are much greater and you would have really terrible builds on the one side and all arounder that do good in crafting, PvP, solo leveling, DPSing, tanking and supporting (chose 3 to 5 of those things) on the other side. This punishes players for playing average builds.
Most of people that are defending new system have probably played with the skill sim and found just the right build that “suits” them and is really strong. They feel really clever for making it and the build will be so unique among all the other builds and they will stand out of the crowd. They can’t even imagine their shiny new build gone. The thing is that in this limitless system eventually you would have 2-3 builds for each of the starting classes with slight variation that are playable, just as now.
The thing is I was writing here to get some reassurance that this won’t be the thing in finished game. I looked at some stuff and I made reasons why devs did it and why it wont be in finished game:
- Devs made it to test (skills of) higher levels of some classes that were picked only for one level.
- Original system was made with much thought about synergyes between the classes in that system with 2 new options at each rank and devs had in mind the hidden classes also.
- Devs also had different roles in mind and made a game that would be balanced with and by partying. Possibility of all arounders kills the diversity in party compositions.
- Number of combinations would create so much continuous work for devs and they don’t have the time or finance to do that.
And now I made myself belive in it xD and I want to make people that are all in for limitless system realize that it ain’t that good ^^’
So your logic is that people ‘might’ be stupid and therefore limitations should be put in place so they don’t trip over themselves?
Tell me, who are you to judge? If a person decide to pick this so called ‘average’ build because of his own reason, who are you to declare him as ‘bad’?
If someone take Alchemist for full crafting, is he bad? Because it doesn’t fit into your 5 things (PvP,solo,DPS,tank,support) so he must’ve WASTED a rank right?!
Also, what is this terrible build? And why can’t it do some of these 5 things you mentioned? When its opposite end is still ‘all rounder’?
Do you know what’s the opposite of all-around build? A FOCUSED BUILD
Frankly I find the pros outweigh the cons.
Uhh…so you’d rather limit what builds we can pick than giving us choices…and that’s a…good thing?
Still fighting right?
Just keep one thing in mind: the new system is a test.
The devs take years to craft their unique class system, now they’re trying to refine it. Making mistakes is also a part of the process.
Okay for the pros, the new system offers a ton of possibilities… But too much possibilities kills the original idea.
With the new system, we’ll see a lot of “fun builds”, and that’s great, more personnal builds, where everyone make the char he wants… But it’s too far away from the restrictive original system. It’s a good idea, but not in the “ToS’ way of life”.
Giving more possibilities is great, but not like this. It needs rework, again.
Things will change soon again, don’t worry. That’s the purpose of beta tests.
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I think covjek summarizes it well here, especially focusing on these 2 quotes:
I’m not saying the new system won’t ever work, it would if there was a lot more balance in place. As I described above, with classes like Barbarian holding so many strong buffs alone, it’s not really well balanced at all. Until they achieve a very well balanced medium across all ranks in a class, the old system with limits is actually more balanced than now, as it actually forces people to give up some abilities for others, which is in itself a form of a balancing mechanism.
thanks for the ideas
these options are pretty neat
“Extreme” build focuses on one field, all-around build can fit into various environment.
They are different, and if look at them from one angle(DPS) one is definitely worse than the other, but on an overall scale? Who’s to judge?
Also I like how you skip the part where he mentions one side is terrible build and the opposite side is all-around build, and neglect a focused build like, say, your DPS build?
And I’m not sure, but are you aware there’s buffs limit? Taking so many buffs have its own demerits.
Except this new system is the same?
If a hoplite want to pick up Barb C1, he’d have to sacrifice something else for it.
And it’s questionable whether the thing sacrificed is ‘worse’ than the gain as well.
It seems that my post really poked you. And again, it’s like you didn’t even read everything or just didn’t understand… or you interpret things so it would fit into your arguments.
Term “extreme” is fluid. I wanted to say that with limitless system you will have finished builds that don’t exel in one thing and have some parts of others but the builds that are exelent in most categories.
I never said anyone was bad or stupid, I just said that upper extremes will discurage people from playing other stuff (they might try out different things but won’t stick to it when they underperform).
Ok, I’ll add crafting to the list. If you read the post befor this one you would notice that I was already talking about utility classes. People whine for having to pick them at certain rank and how they should just pick it and get over it…
There are all arounders now, but they don’t exel in every single thing, they perform moderatly. With new system you can create something is good in almost everything and you’ll end up with parties full of chars that don’t really distiguish between themselves.
There’s also tonn of things in between, it’s not just black and white.
Be sure that this won’t be in end product, devs either wanted for higher ranks of some classes to be tested or are paving the way for something that will allow some more options then first system.
Again, another pointless post from me at which you will angrily respond in the same way you did before. I’m starting to enjoy this, I never had this intense internet argument before 
Just for the record, I only quoted covjek because he covered what I was going to say already, I’m not taking his side and agreeing with everything he says or anything.
Unfortunately if we are talking about DPS builds, the highest DPS builds tends to be the most focused, and the build that dishes out bigger numbers will be better. People WILL judge you on this when they invite people into the party, for example if a Corsair or Doppel is not dealing out the damage that is expected of a cookie-cutter Corsair or Doppel, there is a good chance he will be replaced, even if you say “Oh but I’ve got Squire C1, I can support as well!”, they are expecting you for your DPS not for support. If they want someone to support they will hire a Squire C2 instead.
This pushes people into cookie cutter builds.
I made an entire thread on this subject alone. It is an issue that is experienced later in the game in parties when someone starts throwing buffs on you and there is no Krivis with Daino buff. However despite this, a lot of people are still going to go for cookie cutter builds due to the lack of balance. Not to mention with this new change, a lot of Clerics are going to be able to pick up Krivis as well so Daino buffs will be more readily available, further pushing them into cookie cutter builds.
The old system separates Hoplite from Barbarian, you either get 1 or the other. Under this new system, you can combine both Hoplite and Barbarian together (how many circles to take for each class to be optimal still requires testing), which makes this new combination OP (Savagery + Stabbing + all those other buffs). This would definitely be one of the new cookie cutter builds under the new system.
20 hidden classes* not 30 ^^
And since it should be divided per the base classes it would mean 5 hidden classes per classes. From what i’ve read it would make so your ranks 9 -> 11 would be for hidden classes. And if you can only chose one that would pretty well balance the hidden classes i think