Tree of Savior Forum

Musings on iToS Balance - Part III of V (The All for One Syndrome)

This is part III of the V part series, a collection of my observations and thoughts over on iToS. Took a bit longer than usual for this chapter, due to RL work and the release of HZD. Writing and completing this chapter actually make me think hard on my time spent in this game, hopefully I don’t get too affected after I complete this series.

  • Balance within player’s own family - the All for One Syndrome
  • Balance in character building - Achieving the 80 class dream

Disclaimer
These are just my personal observations and opinions, do feel free to disagree, suggest and discuss XD.

[Balance within player’s own family - the All for One Syndrome]

Before getting into the family syndrome let us delve into the 2 other topics which I find associated with the main topic. The first one is about the personalities us players have, and how it affects our behaviors in games. The second is the concept of spending time to achieve a certain goal, in gamer’s terms we call it the “grind”.

If we look into the history of MMORPGs, we will often of not, come across a person called Richard Bartle. He is one of the pioneers of MMOs, which started out as text based MUDs (Multi-user Dungeons) in the 1990s. Those of us who are fortunate to live during that era and have access to a computer with a dial-up modem would remember spending hours pressing keys to read through the countless lines of text in the those days. Yes these are the early mmos, they have little to no graphics and are just pure text, like a digital tabletop D&D game with a computer as a GM.

Anyway why talk about this guy? Richard Bartle published a paper on his observations on the types of players, their personalities and motivations in playing a game. The paper categorised the gamers into 4 types, and is used widely by game companies as reference these days in designing content and experiences for their audiences. The 4 categories are, Explorer, Achiever, Socialist and Killer. Explorers are players who likes to explore lore, find easter eggs, experiment with builds and mechanics. Achievers are players who aim for the top or be within the top bracket, like having best equipment, best skills, conquering the hardest dungeons etc. Socialists are players who plays with company of others, they tend to weigh relationships in game more heavily than the game itself. Killers thrive on besting other players, PVP is where they always flock to.

The importance of knowing player personalities and motivations is that with the knowledge, developers can craft out a game which best suits the players. From giving trophy rewards such as map collections for the achievers, creating skill interactions between classes to thrill out the explorers to making balanced pvp/gvg for killers who thirst for the glory of besting others. In an ideal MMO game, there will be an equilibrium of content made for the 4 player types, so that everyone can enjoy the game.

To know what’s your gamer personality type, do try out the test in the link below. For those who want to know, I’m 87% explorer, 66% socialist, 40% achiever and 7% killer btw. :3
http://matthewbarr.co.uk/bartle/

Next is the concept of trading time to achieve a certain goal, or grind. In real life, we do it all the time, like if we want to slim down and keep ourselves fit, we hit the gym and grind it out. If we want to do well in our studies, we grind the books until we understand/memorised everything. Basically grind is hard work and effort put in in order to get something in return. If we perceive the goal’s value as roughly the same value as the effort put into getting to it, it is well worth the effort to grind. Likewise, a grind becomes a chore when the end goal’s worth doesn’t equate to the effort spent getting to it.

Games, especially ones with a character progression system, bring this concept into the game. Players, just like what they do in real life, invest time to grind out objectives in game to make their character progress. Games with huge amounts of time needed to get a small sliver of progress are called grinding games due to this. This is also why player populations are often against behaviors like afk-farming, macroing and botting, as these activities often translate to the lack of “effort” to achieve the same objectives in which normal players place a significant amount of time and effort in getting.

ToS focuses mainly on 3 of the 4 player categories, at least in theory. It provides skill combinations between classes, lore which keeps explorers happy, collections, achievements, gear progression for the achievers and some degree of player communication and interaction in game via emoticons and chat channels for the socialists. There’s some form of GVG/TBL for Killers too but sadly it is ill-implemented, mainly due to class/gear balancing and network issues. ToS is a traditional grind MMO, no matter how much we quest and such, we will still grind at some part of our journey towards end game, whether it is for level or gear. Not to say grind is bad, a healthy amount of grind is actually good for the game. It provides a time sink for players and gives value to the item the player is grinding for. Good implementations of these in ToS are like collecting helms for Magnum Opus to make Phada, a healthy 15-20 hour grind for the item, or the 70-100 hour (estimated) grind for R8 materials to make the orange level330 equipments. The equipments are powerful and is percieved as well worth the effort invested into getting them.

On the other side, grinds which are inserted in just to put a wall to prevent a player’s progress of the game’s content are not healthy to the game. This has been said in Chapter II but I would like to reiterate and add on to here, since the issues are somehow linked together and it will be hard to seperate them. As we know, the content in R8 can’t really be experienced in most maps/situations without some investment in leveling up the weapon via transcendence. Not all classes experience it the same, as some of the classes are too balanced to the content as compared to others.

Having an equipment wall such as this to prevent players from accessing the content hurts the playerbase. Explorers lost the motivation to carry on their quest for lore and experiments due to the high bar set for R8 content. Killers get more unbalanced pvps and gvgs due to gear discrepancies. Achievers do gain something here though, since getting to high trancendence is an achievement by itself. But then, we players aren’t stupid, instead of waiting daily to slowly get the transcendence shards on our character to progress, we create alternate characters (alts) to hasten up the process.

This creates the “All for One” Syndrome, where many characters pool together their resources to build 1 character up (Yes I do know and read the manga Hero Academia, but the all for one isn’t derived from there :3 ). Many games do this, where alternate farming characters are set up to farm in-game commodities to help fund the main character. But, there is one key difference between these games and ToS, and that is ToS has character limited commodities, which is blessed shards and the ever elusive practonium.

Unlike alts in other games where they can continue progressing, Alts in ToS who gave their shards and practonium to the main, lose their ability to progress in game.

This is due to the limited nature of practonium (max of 1 in iToS and 2 in other ToSes per character) and how the material is needed for weapons which is crucial for R8 content. One can argue that practonium and shards can be bought off market, but do bear in mind that some other player is also sacrificing their alt’s chance of progression just to sell that material. Some character builds such as Cannoneers, Musketeers will require more than 1 practonium as they need more than 1 weapon type to dps. Transcendence on 220 equipment can do the job too, but it defeats the purpose of having alts in the first place (in this case alts are created to fund the main) since all other characters will need to pool resources together again in order to make that alt able to progress. Moreover, transcended equipment is non-transferrable making the grind for equipment to level another character to become R8 viable a huge chore. The player will need to create more alts just to push another character up.

Limited resources such as practonium stunts character progression

It comes to the question, does the ToS developers’ vision of a team means 1 main character with many alts built to support it? What kind of player personality type does this type of concept supports? Will explorers, socialists and killers want to level and grind additional alts just to be able to do what they enjoy most in game?


Suggestion(s) on how to break All-for-One

Increase ways and means of getting Practonium

PrinceKen has stated that limiting practonium a way for not letting players get to the end game equipment so fast. We can have practonium still retain the same rarity but characters are able to get them in more methods rather than only through the mystical cube. One way to do it is via Alchemist’s Magnum Opus, where the ingredients needed require a substantial amount of farming to acquire.

An example:

Homuculus’s MO requires the alchemist to gather materials all over the ToS world, the practonium MO can be of similar nature too except the materials are harder to get and/or require many crafting classes to combine their crafted materials just to make… like require crafted mat A from squire, mat B from pardoner, mat C from enchanter and alchemist to combine everything to get practonium.

This creates a way to grind for the material without needing to create alternates just to get more. Alternate characters will also have the chance to level up too besides being a farming mule due to the material being no long character limited. It also helps boost the playerbase’s interaction with each other by introducing things which requires multiple players/builds to craft.


Allow transcended equipment to be traded via team storage

Transcendence by itself is supposed to be an end game implementation. Since it is implemented it is hard to remove it. Besides nerfing or changing transcendence, it can be made only traded via team storage so that each character within the team has the chance to use it for content progression. This helps lessen the impact of needing additional alts and time just to make 1 more character viable for R8 content.


To read about the previous sections, please visit the links listed at the beginning of the post.

Next upcoming Section IV - [Balance in interplayer content - Are we islands?]

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Nothing much, having this set of articles is more of a counting down for me… unless something substantial happens to ToS in the next few weeks. :3

This game is losing too many explorers, soon the only ones left are achievers only. Just see how many players who are contributing to builds and guides are left… sigh.

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Max character slots: 15. How many games out there give as many as 15 slots? Must be there for a reason right? :joy:

Best question this week regardless.

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Now is 30. Maybe they set those transcendence requirements so high as they got take into account that some of us can farm 180 shards a day.

30 x 2runs (token) x 3 (reroll x2) = 180

Oh wow didnt know that. Thats just disgusting. Cant even imagine anyone with the sanity to play every of his characters everyday, doing dungeons with that queue time.

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free bump becoz neko give a tldr ver in discord LOOOOOOL

I don’t know if I’m right in saying this but I just want to give my opinion:

Whenever I play PvP it is not only for the “pvp” thing. I like to find how to use mechanics I have and PvP is a great way for forcing someone to find tricks and learn more of the game mechanic.

For me almost any PvP is fine, I’m not into the “I’ll go to another game which is better for PvP” thing. What mostly breaks the GvG/TBL/PvP in this game are mostly: restrictions (as well relates to player base, how would splitting PvP into full-time affects number matches one can get?) and things they need to work on.

For example:

  1. You can explore everything you have and have an unbalanced skill/mechanic/etc that hinders all the possibilities you can do with your class.
  2. You can plan everything but then a player abuse a FPS Drop-inducing skill that breaks everyone’s game for 3s without any way for reaction.
  3. TBL time is too short and random, in GvG you can’t fight the same guild again for fun and improvement, also only two matches a day in a limited time. Any error or random bad event happens and you’re out, the fun is gone.

It was pretty fun, for example, when everyone said that SR was bad for PvP and I could see that the range+AoE from Retreat Shot could be a thing since then and that’s something some people calls overpowered right now. Or how I could find that Heavy Shot is a great counter against Psychokinos that were god of PvP by repeating fights over and over.

But it now gets to a point which is not fun because there are too many restrictions on when and how you are going to play against other players (this is what mostly demotivates me). When you finally do so the worse for me isn’t even how “the whole PvP scenario is unbalanced”.

But how some bugs/mechanics/desync completely invalidate any effort you can do to get over it. This completely kills fun, it’s not a loss you could learn to do it better on next time, it’s simply: you lost and that’s it, got hit from desync (invisible) character, got owned by a mechanic that doesn’t feel right nor gives alternatives, got FPS drop/crash because some skill and someone took advantage of it.

If you (maybe not everyone?) win by these means, it is not fun at all, there’s no satisfaction on beating someone because you got advantage from these type of things.

P.S.: I do agree that unbalancing classes/gears/etc are one of the worse things too, but in a perfect world everyone could have the same gears if they put the same time/effort into the game [assuming their lower the effort], even on really low but playable FPS, for me the problem would still fall on how those bad restrictions, mechanics, bugs and etc completely destroys any fun you could have.

P.S. 2: Test results.

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Agree with all the points. Network issues is one of the main reasons why I don’t play PVP/TBL/GVG in ToS too. Personally I just can’t stand the desync and frame drops in pvp, and I find it better for me to just drop the idea of pvping altogether in ToS rather than be frustrated whenever I

  • used a skill but character get frame locked but skill isn’t registered
  • tried to attack a KBed opponent but opponent isn’t there due to desync
  • sudden frame drops due to skill rendering (frost tree / magnetic pole etc)

Much more can be done to improve TBL/GVG, I do agree that IMC should loosen restrictions so that players can get to play and experiment more. Like having non-time restricted TBL without any gain/loss in points so players can go in, have practice matches and have fun. I kind of miss the time where I spend hours in training rooms trying out stuff in the fighting games I played.

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this is me, yey~

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Lodge lvl 60 issue in a nutshell.


Poeple these days only play Tree of Forum, and those who still persist in iToS get ignored in forum.
But I think that people like us are just going to keep playing till the ship sinks.

Ah fk… we need Class reset voucher so bad after all the trap classes we have tested.

oh look im equal on Socialiser and Explorer. kek.

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Most stupid grouping I’ve ever come across. To achieve those irrational setting, the test features way too many questions that force the player to choose an option he doesn’t want, just because “reasons”.
It’s quite sad that nowadays, the RPGs aren’t as good as most MMORPGs when it comes to class systems, that’s why I’m still playing MMORPGs.

The Era of exploration is long gone thanks to stupid fan communities spoiling everything on the net months before it gets out in the west, and even game companies ruin the fun by spoilering content changes in patch notes.

Achieving is not possible in a game that will never be complete as long as it’s running, meaning you are eternally “catch-upper” instead of “achiever”.

Socializing in MMORPGs is also just a waste of time, as you can just do retarded Fecesbook or chat coomunication instead if you want to socialize (or go out). In the end, most times you get kicked in the ass for socializing in MMOs because you get less exp,less $$$ and less personal loot if you do grouping, making you either a “sugar daddy” for your sucker ups or a “leecher” if you can’t achieve anything on your own.

“Playerkiller” is the worst feature of MMOs that are not PvP-based battlefields like “Battlefield”, “Team Fortress”, “Overwatch” etc. , because it negates any lore, any socializing features and any “humanity”, making players just kill each other for “fun”. Worst if you even get spoils for doing so instead of working together to save the world e.g.



Btw, grinding is just trapping the players inside the Skinner Box.
We are getting programmed to work harder with less gain year after year, be it in society or in MMOs, because that’s what managers do: they try to bring us near the limit to find out how much it takes for us to break or scram, add some% to it and turn it into a business plan to cut costs&increase productivity to be able to compete on the global market.
Increasing productivity in games is add cheap 0+1 items and sell them for hard $$$, while adding stupid recycled content every month/few months to keep players pockets open for their hands to “pick” them.

The worst kinds are those like the Schroedingers Practonium cube, which is similar to saying: “There might be a Practonium in it or just some crappy other cube that dies after a certain time once you open this one”, which are cheap methods to keep players “busy” endlessly just because reasons and missing balance (equip/skills/Classes) that forces you to get the weapon in the first place.

Daily grinding quests and instances are pretty much unacceptable, because of the high limitations which enforces a playing habit onto the player that makes him seem like or turn him into a gaming addict without him even realizing it. The more he stops the more he is reprimanded until he either stops completely or starts over again, with an even unhealthier habit because his brain punishes him (additionally to the game) for being a bad player.

Good old Ragnarok Online didn’t have these filthy gaming traps with pseudo grinding, trying to turn you into a gaming addict to empty your wallet sooner or later. I wish the developers would understand that we Westerners aren’t as retarded as the gaming 08/15 Asian that takes every bait thrown at them without protest.



About the “All for one” aspect: Sadly I see it becoming more common that you can achieve more and more by running several characters instead of just one because of restrictions over restrictions added to the game.
Practonium is just the tip of the iceberg, ranging from RNG dungeon cubes over monster cards and Blessed Shards to even event items like those valentine chocolates.

Reminds me of Yosuga no Soras subtitle: “In solitude where we are least alone”, creating an unlimited army of “Alter Egos”, “Doppelgaengers” or “Split Personalities”, however you want to call them, turning your account into some kind of Chimera, a monster that hungers for more and more of your free time and money the more it grows (more charslots cost $$$ and the chars take extra time to level and use).
It’s not “all for one” anymore, it’s more like “My name is Legion, because we are many”[Markus 5:9], turning players into demons or zombies in the process instead of “consumers”, customers", “guests”, “inhabitants” or whatever you’d want to call them normally, and as what they should be percieved and treated as by the company who offers their “services” to them.

Practonium for a guild quest would be fine, or as a community quest from the developers as a sort of event where everyone has to work together for once instead of soloing and grobbing for more&more. If you make it available again for just everyone but with a stupid RNG or whatever bound to it, I don’t feel that it’s going to help but just drive in the plug deeper and deeper inbetween whatever is left of the community.

We need more cooperation, not more of those “I have 30 characters so I deserve several times more than everyone else” mentalities, and some mending here and there by the staff.

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I want to add my opinion. It feels to me what IMC has difficulties grasping one of the fundamental aspects of MMORPG, and that is the majority of game content comes from the players and not the developers.

The rate which players consume content will always exceed the rate developers can create content. And IMC seems to be aware of this, so they attempt to titrate the content by adding restriction (e.g. PrinceKen’s logic). But players themselves generate their own content, such as acting like an “opponent” for other players in TBL. What is better is that player content is ever changing because it is “alive.” So in efforts to titrate content in efforts to increase play time, they actually reduced content by limiting player interactions and forfeited much of the MMO experience.

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The Bartle Test of Gamer Psychology

You are 80% Killer

What Bartle says:

:clubs: Killers get their kicks from imposing themselves on others. This may be “nice”, ie. busybody do-gooding, but few people practice such an approach because the rewards (a warm, cosy inner glow, apparently) aren’t very substantial. Much more commonly, people attack other players with a view to killing off their personae (hence the name for this style of play). The more massive the distress caused, the greater the killer’s joy at having caused it. Normal points-scoring is usually required so as to become powerful enough to begin causing havoc in earnest, and exploration of a kind is necessary to discover new and ingenious ways to kill people. Even socialising is sometimes worthwhile beyond taunting a recent victim, for example in finding out someone’s playing habits, or discussing tactics with fellow killers. They’re all just means to an end, though; only in the knowledge that a real person, somewhere, is very upset by what you’ve just done, yet can themselves do nothing about it, is there any true adrenalin-shooting, juicy fun.
You are also:

53% Socialiser

40% Achiever

27% Explorer

This result may be abbreviated as KSAE

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I refuse to take part in lame stuff like building an army of alts to feed 1 main, or making an army of necroes to afk farm for me.

It’s on IMC to make those strategies less effective.

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I feel the same as you really. :confused: Now just playing here and there a little and mostly waiting for them to fix their game.

Thanks to @Nekorin for writing these, it’s fun to read these and I appreciate the effort and time spent. I hope IMC would read these as well and really sit and think what you have said and maybe have some discussion on them so they could use these to make the game better, even if they didn’t use any direct suggestions.

And just cause others I want to share this too :stuck_out_tongue:

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It won’t. However the long term plans are certainly intriguing. I’m hoping that their revamped look at stats really brings the emphasis away from gear and back on your choices when leveling up.

I’m sure you’ve seen these already, but a reminder of their plans for the months ahead:

since people are posting:
The Bartle Test of Gamer Psychology

You are 67% Explorer

What Bartle says:

:spades: Explorers delight in having the game expose its internal machinations to them. They try progressively esoteric actions in wild, out-of-the-way places, looking for interesting features (ie. bugs) and figuring out how things work. Scoring points may be necessary to enter some next phase of exploration, but it’s tedious, and anyone with half a brain can do it. Killing is quicker, and might be a constructive exercise in its own right, but it causes too much hassle in the long run if the deceased return to seek retribution. Socialising can be informative as a source of new ideas to try out, but most of what people say is irrelevant or old hat. The real fun comes only from discovery, and making the most complete set of maps in existence.
You are also:

53% Socialiser

53% Killer

27% Achiever

This result may be abbreviated as ESKA

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Doesn’t include fixing the frame rate and netcode, the root of all problems in TOS :slight_smile:

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