Tree of Savior Forum

Musings on iToS Balance - Part IV of V (Are we islands)

This has been delayed for so long, partly due to my reallife workload, some career path choices and new Hackapelle project where I rerolled as a hackapelle. Decided to change up the presentation a bit so it is easier to get the point across (hopefully).

This is part IV of the V part series, a collection of my observations and thoughts over on iToS. As of now Musings IV is not fully complete, I’m still writing the guild and pvp/gvg aspect (mainly due to my limited experiences in both), so I’ll just post whatever is done first on the pve side, which is already kind of long :3

  • Balance in interplayer content - Are we islands?
  • Balance in character building - Achieving the 80 class dream

Disclaimer
These are just my personal observations and opinions, do feel free to disagree, suggest and discuss XD.

[Balance in interplayer content - Are we islands?]

What is about the title about islands? Islands are land masses which are surrounded completely by a water body, meaning they aren’t connected to any connected land mass. In this context here, if a player is considered as an island, it means the player is ‘isolated’ and not connected to other players.

The community aspect is what defines MMORPGs as a genre on its own. Players are attracted to MMOs not just because of the gameplay, the game also offers opportunities to foster player to player interaction. This is what makes the genre truly unique, the game allows multiple players to play together, whether they are with or against each other in the given game situation.

Situations are modes of content in which the game presents to allow a myriad of interactions in between players, which can be divided into the following categories:

  • Player(s) vs environment (PVE)
  • Player vs Player (PVP)
  • Large player groups vs environment (Raids, GVE)
  • Large player group vs Large player group (GVG)

And interactions themselves can range from simple dialogues between players, trading between players, to performing in game actions and utilizing game mechanics to advance one another’s game experiences. MMOs generally capitalise and innovate on this area as this is their main selling point, and this is what sets the MMO genre apart from the other games. MMOs which kind of fall short in this aspect often have players prefer to do much of the game’s content solo instead of opting to be in a group.

Tree of Islands

I often like to tell my guildmates and others that ToS is just like a single player game with an over-glorified chatbox. Most of its PVE content can be done in a single player setting and players often don’t really interact much in its supposed party/group based content. With the exception of Earth Tower/Solmiki, most of the other party based contents such as Level dungeons and Missions are just silence shows of 5 players running without any interaction.

Is it because the players are shy and not willing to talk? Or is it because the current content design doesn’t require much interaction between players at all?

Interactions between players doesn’t necessarily limit to only chatting. Great games use good content design to create situations in which players will need to work together in order to advance. One example of such is to create simultaneous, concurrent mini goals in which the player group will have to divide themselves up to take on each task in order to complete the overall goal. With different tasks required, players will have to interact among themselves more in order to get the job done in the most efficient manner (finding the best player/build for a particular task).

ET has a few levels in which we can see the above in action. For example the 4th levels (4,9,14,19), an efficient strategy is to have a player to kite the mobs around while the rest chill, or if the team has a Taoist, can just throw some amulets to have an easy way out. This is good interaction design, but sadly this is only reflected in just 1 dungeon of the entire ToS game, with all the rest of the other dungeons having none of such interactions.

One thing in which we know that ET/Solmiki has strict party setup requirements to clear and having interactions which are good in ET/Solmiki isn’t viable for normal, random based party setups in which dungeons are known for. The solution to this is to, and a recurrent suggestion in this Musing Chapter:

Design content with this limitation in mind. Good designs are always done with limitations.


Suggestion: Have alternate objectives/modes of completion

So how do we design interactive content where players need not have a specific party setup? The answer is pretty simple actually, to include game elements in which players need to know each other’s position and adjust themselves. Dungeon goals need not always be whittling down the dungeon boss’s hp down with the party’s own dps.

Consider a dungeon boss which has only 5 hp but invulnerable to all attacks except an environment bomb in which players will take 10secs to set up. It will take 5 bombs to kill the boss. A player will have to get the boss’s attention and kite it around and unto the bombs other players gather and set up. This type of interaction requires no fixed party, needs the group to work together while giving the individual party members small tasks to do.

How about another boss interaction in which the boss will constantly get healed by its underlings and the only way for it to be defeated it to divide the party with one dpsing down the boss and the other doing their best not to let any of the boss’s underlings get near the boss?

Or a boss which will periodically gives a random player a poison debuff that deals no damage to the player itself but is lethal to other players around him/her? That player will have to quickly move away from the party until the debuff is cleared. Or another dungeon type in which the players have to run across the entire dungeon while clearing down walls (either dps down or require 2 separate switches on either end to open) within a set time limit? Failure to do so will result in failing the dungeon?

Just by changing the clear objectives and introducing mini-goals in general party dungeons, it creates more interactions between players.


Next is on large player groups gameplay, one of the key hinderances that is preventing players from enjoying fights that involve large player groups is the limitation of the game’s network/graphics engine. When many players cast spells and use skills at a single location, it will bog down the system to a crawl, and low FPS makes the gaming experience bad and non fulfilling.

Suggestion: Divide and Conquer

One solution to solving the low fps problem is to do up another rendering engine in which will not lag, but till that is implemented there are other methods of create fun, engaging content within the limitation of the current game engine.

If the game lags because many players are at the same location, create situations where they have to split themselves to many locations to clear the objective. Divide and conquer.

An guild raid example will be to have 5 bosses in different rooms of the map (1 in each section of demon prison for example) which needed to be killed 1 minute within each other. This splits out the load of the game engine, making the boss fight a better experience for the entire raid party. This also promotes more player interaction as it isn’t just a simple “open up all dps and kill everything”. The number of bosses and rewards will also change according to the number of player participants.

The divide and conquer strategy can also be utilized in World Bossing too. Following the 5 bosses in map example, a future world boss can split itself up to an X number of replications, and each replica boss will get a lot stronger and hit harder the closer they are to each other replica. World bossing parties will have to pull these replicas a distance away from each other in order to defeat the WB. This allows:

  • Smoother fights as players are divided across areas too
  • More participation from players as more replicas = more players can fight together

Space provisioned for more content … __φ( ̄ー ̄ )


To read about the previous sections, please visit the links listed at the beginning of the post.

To be added to Musings IV:

  • Guild thoughts and suggestions
  • PVP/TBL/GVG thoughts and suggestions

Musings V will have to wait ( ̄  ̄|||).

9 Likes

First of all, thanks for taking your time to make this compilation.
Secondly, my following words are not bashing you or anyone who still have high hopes for ToS, well, I do too, but not as high as it was 6 months ago.

This would work IF the game behaved equally in each kind of machine (PC), but independent of same parts but different builders, it behave differently, also, background software can cause interference.

My point is, the game is terrible optimized (as we are tired of know) and doesn’t matter if you have a Nasa super computer, it may or not work as it should.

Is it possible to fix? Yes it is.

Then why it isn’t fixed yet? Because the developer don’t have the knowledge to fix it.

You may think I’m talking some BS, but take other MMOs for example, I played a bunch during their Alpha or Beta stages that barely held up for 10 mins without crashing due to memory leak, RAM or GPU, some simple didn’t started due to DirectX errors and some worked like the actual version of ToS.

Did they fixed? They did, it work (or worked as some shut down for bad management, the same is happening here) well after the fixes.

It’s almost 2 years since this project came to west (I’m counting since 1st CBT) and I haven’t see much improvement on that department.

I know some will come and say, no you are wrong, it works flawlessly.

If it does, why some people, who have machines that can run The Witcher 3 at 60+fps can’t run this game with more than 20 fps?

I’m tired of idiotic excuses, I had high expectations for this project, but IMC is shooting their own feet and spitting in their own work as far as I can see their actions.

4 Likes

Agreed, the fps must be fixed ASAP. More delaying = no proper endgame content

2 Likes

I agree that FPS issues should be fixed asap. I am too waiting for the time when I can finally see GVG with fps higher than 3fps. Am running on an i5 with gtx980, and am still struggling with FPS issues and lags sighz.

FPS optimisation shouldn’t be ignored, but it will be really great if the game has some interim measures too in between now till the time the FPS is optimised. Things which can’t be solved fast in development can be made much lesser of a frustration to players with design.

4 Likes

I won’t go to the content side of things due to knowing that the game still being developed on that area (since we are still at Lv. 330 content).

But yes, the optimization should had been the first step to make things easier for players and specially developers.

I already said this on other threads in the past, the way they apply patches looks like they have several folders with game clients on different situations (ex.: one client with more bugs than others or with bad optimization than the actual, etc…) but they apply randomly from these same different folders without even check what they are applying with the programmed patch.

Of course, it’s my guess, but if you properly pay attention on how the patches came since EA and OBT, you will notice that sometimes it get good optimization but on the next patch it goes all the way down to crap.

Forgot to mention that, if they really had things under control, we would probably be around Lv. 400 or 450 content by now.

4 Likes

I wanted to participate in this thread but everytime Nirimetus posts before me, he says everything I wanted to.

I’m just posting this one to thank you (Nekorin) for the time you take to write these and make them understandable for everyone, without taking any party.
I know too well how hard it is…

If iTOS survives and gets better, you could consider that the optimism and realism of players like you had to do something about it, I hope some GM already came to you to discuss in private about it, because they did for me and even for other people just freely bashing the game.

Back to spectator mode

4 Likes

While I agree that the content doesn’t promote group interaction, I have sad experiences/traumata from playing Dragon Nest when it comes to group interaction concerning raids/dungeons.

I believe the basic problem of TOS is that the game doesn’t promote player interaction by having too much out in the open, and too much single-player focus. When I remember my first days in RO OBT (the international one, before it closed and I went to the European RO OBT), the world was amazing, and you were supposed to travel and explore the world as it is. There were basically near to no NPCs, and most stuff they told you/gave you was random stuff/bad gear at best.

Players had to stick together to make their way through the game, as the level progression was way easier in a party than solo.

There was also the absence of EXP through quests or instanced dungeons, which provides the greatest problem for TOS in general:



Mobgrinding is not effective, stupid and boring.
The monster A.I. is gruesome to the point where monsters will just do 3 things: Attack, cast a skill or run away in search of Heal tiles (sometimes this even bugs and they run into player Heal tiles -> instant death).
They feel like hitting an HP-sponge, even if they are not so much different from ROs monsters.

But the worst thing is that hunting monsters is not rewarding.
The EXP they give is so much worse than the easy daily missions/instanced dungeons, and the drops are mostly trash.

  • they drop money. In RO, they never dropped any money, which is what helped establishing a good market for items, and drops were either sold to the NPC or to players for more $$$.


Another problem is the bad Class balance, but we had that discussion already elsewhere. It helps strenghen the bias of the players towards going solo rather than party,though. Additionally, there’s the great bias against premade parties in the dungeon queing, which nets you less bonus EXP than going with a random party made by the system.
This surely doesn’t support player interaction, as you can just queue for the dungeon, get matched automatically by the system and even better EXP than having to interact with people to form a group and enter together.



About instanced dungeons/missions/Saalus:

While you’re right that the group interaction is ± non-existent in these instances, I hope they will never introduce crappy mechanics where one player can fail the whole run.

Imagine you go automatching and someone fails every try, you’ll lose your daily entrances because instances are counted towards the limit once you enter them. There’s also the equipment-durability and the gem-loss issue on death.

Another thing that’s not nice is that it promotes power creep if they introduce several bosses and time limits.
No cookie cutter? out
No practonium weapon/ET gear? out
No transcendence? out
Supporter Class? out
The game is already focusing this way too much, which made the Rank 8 content very hard for many people, considering the stupid scaling of attacks&skills. If monsters take longer to kill and are harder, they should come in lower numbers and yield better rewards.

Support skills need better effects so people would want them in a party, and the support skills should provide a better effect on the supporter himself than on the party members so that the Ranks invested into support Classes are at least 2/3 compensated.



Also, I hate to say it but the transcendence system is practically the nail to the solo-coffin. Instead of promoting guilds or party play by giving out transcendence items (Blessed Gems)/ranking up your weapon by accumulating party exp, you get up to two shards per character/day.

Having some people play several chars a day while others play only one is another reason why this game despises party play. There’s already so much restriction with monster->player level gap, which makes high level monsters unbeatable as a “low”-level player (10 levels difference can get you killed, while RO had a 10-20 levels share difference for even share in party, so it wasn’t uncommon so to see some level variety inside a party),
which makes party oriented content as daily missions/Saalus a hell of a trip if you get 1-4 higher leveled players in your party.

Some Saalus missions even take too much time, considering the low return (1 shard = 1/10 of a gem per run) and the possible time loss/frustration on your end. I honestly find it amazing how people can farm this every day for hours just because of transcendence.

But back on topic: The problem is that even if you get your stuff to transcendence 10, other players will/might not, and then what?
What do you gain other than being able to survive everything because of 1 damage and obliterating everything within a few hits? You’re one of a few who got ultimate power, congrats, now wait for the next update to rinse and repeat the same thing again.
Meanwhile 99% of your friends quit the game because they don’t have such willpower or the time to invest.

9/10 people would prefer to play Mario Party with their friends and have fun rather than doing repeatative daily bulls$@# with random people you’ll most likely never get matched with again anyway. If transcendence would involve community work towards a single goal, it could be great and become fun at the same time, but if it’s just “everyone does his thing” and “whales always get the best gear because they sell cash shop items”, noone is gonna bother about the community.



Basically, it’s like the storyline of TOS: a single person sets out on a journey, meets other people (even other Revelators) along the way, parts way with them, single-handedly wipes the floor with all the demons he meets and is forever alone.

Well, it’s a Korean game, so no wonder, Korean and Chinese fiction always propagates the single warrior travelling through the world and becoming a hero, while the Japanese RPG always favors the bonding/friendship where one covers the weaknesses of the other.

Thanks at Nekorin for taking your time until now and hf with writing your last instance& playing your Hackapella :slight_smile:

5 Likes

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