Tree of Savior Forum

Musings on iToS Balance - Part V of V - Balancing in Character Building

General Discussion
#1

Ahhh, supposedly due to complete this section months before but put it off due to the great rebalancing of character classes. Wanted to see how the game will be like after the class skill changes from flat damage to skill percentages.

This is part V of the V part series, a collection of my observations and thoughts over on iToS. Musings IV isn’t really complete yet, it is missing the PVP/GVG part. Will keep my thoughts on them until the recent kTest patch is brought over to iToS. At the point of writing there is a new balance patch which addresses some key aspects of inbalances in PVP, namely crowd control abilities. Hence, skip part IV and straight jump to V.

  • Balance in character building - Achieving the 80 class dream

Disclaimer
These are just my personal observations and opinions, do feel free to disagree, suggest and discuss XD.

Balance in character building - Achieving the 80 class dream

With the new damage formula revamp, most if not all of the skills for character classes are now in percentage format, making most character builds viable at any point in the game. This is a great feat in balancing and I’m really happy that IMC has chosen to balance damage formula first. So with this, the build’s damage output is now from 2 areas, namely Stats and Items with Items contributing a big percentage of the damage.

Itemisation at the core of the game

This is relatively common for many grinder type games, like Torchlight, Diablo for instance. ToS now also shifts items to be a key part of the game since the quality of items/equipment now makes up a huge part of the damage formula. Gathering items and equipment is also the current “end game” for the players, who will run end game dungeons like Earth Tower/Solmiki for months trying to get their BiS (Best in Slot) equipment.

If we look at what attracts players to play grinding type games, it often comes down to the joy of finding new gear and upgrades for one’s character. Players like progression, even when the content of the game is always the same, same maps, same monsters, same running routes etc. As long as there is something in which the player can strive for, the game doesn’t feel boring, even when the player has already reached max level with a good set of gear.

Grinder type games give diversity in itemisation by making sure that the player is always presented with choices, what gear combination to use and what gear to sacrifice as part of the set in order to achieve that combination. Or have items which augment class skills making them different in some kind of way.

This makes itemisation part of end game too. With a big collection of items and combinations to do, players will have numerous goals to strive for, like collecting and completing a certain set of equipment. Or to farm for materials to make an equipment that changes the playstyle of their current character.

So where does ToS stand in terms of being a grinder type MMO?

The sad thing is ToS is incredibly linear in equipment itemisation.

Past level 170, there is only 1 path of progression for equipment. All Wizards go for Heart of Glory, if not Skullsmasher for the SPR inclined. All archers only have 1 end game bow to get, Astra bow. There is only 1 set of end game armor (Solmiki gear) for all classes. Players aren’t really presented with choices of gearing at all, not many players give any look to gearing besides the BiS.

The PVE aspect of ToS literally ends when one gets their end game gears.

Suggestion(s) to make character building feel constantly progressive and interesting.

It really depends on how the developers want ToS to be like for end game. Follow traditional MMO style with linear progression of gear will require constant content updates like new maps, new areas, new dungeons, new bosses in order for the game to feel fresh. Or to embrace some aspects of an item grinder type game, introduce more ways for players to find progression within the current maps and content. Personally I do recommend having parts of both, in which players can still have things to do and enjoy while the big content patches will introduce new areas and gear.

Suggestion: Create controversy within equipments

What makes players keep on grinding for equipment and such is having a constant debate between which set of gear combination is the best. Itemisation need not just be single tracked like how Skullsmasher is like, with all positive buffs. Creating skewed equipments (high risk, high reward) such as the following makes itemisation more interesting:

Power at a Cost (Rod)

Matk 2000

INT +150
MDEF -900
PDEF -600

Just having this equipment expands the amount of choices the player has to make. It also affects the playstyle of the player to an extend too. Whether the player will choose to do a hit and run kind of playstyle to suit this equipment, or to make a build that have minions and shields to draw away monsters attention, or to find other equipments which has high enough pdef/mdef to offset the cons the rod comes with.

The same can be done with equipment sets too, like having good buffs when a player wears certain number of pieces of the set, but in order to gain bonuses from multiple sets the player have to make a choice on which set buff to take and which to drop.

Suggestion: Introduce build changing items

Introduce build changing items which players can collect parts to build. Players can find fun even within their own builds, to concoct skill combinations. These parts need not be drops bound to dpk but can be quest return based. Each class itself has a few legendary items but since they are bracelets, players can only choose up to 2 to be equipped.

Like, to get one of the pyromancer legendary items, the quest can be like to farm and return 100x Firelord cubes.

Example of build changing items:

Legendary bracelet which changes Pyromancer’s fireball into a charged skill. The more time the player charges and hits it will do and consumes all fireball OH. Equipping the bracelet increases OH of fireball to 4. Decreases range and damage by 5% per charge.

Legendary bracelet which allows QS3s to dual wield 2x 1hand crossbows. Running shot hits up to 2 targets at once, or if have only 1 target, both attacks will hit the same target. Other skills will use the patk of the main hand only. Reduces running shot damage by 15%.

This makes gearing more interactive than the one and only BiS style we currently have. With numerous such items introduced and different ways to acquire them scattered throughout the maps, it adds another layer of end game to ToS and will help mitigate some resentment that ToS has no end game in between big content patches.

9 Likes
#2

As always, thank you @Nekorin for taking time to compile your thoughts and ideas.

While I find interesting we got some boost in items, as itemization goes for this game, it’s pretty linear.

The only minimal variation you have here is gear for your build with less stats than the BiS you might be looking for as temporary measure.

Other day in a DG (not dungeon but Discord Group lol) I participate, we where talking about this, and an idea came to mind, I will resume it or we will have a long text here:

The idea I proposed was:

  • Transform all items into white recipes.
  • With these recipes, you can pick a certain type of material to add a stats to the final product also based on the monster armor, element and type if applicable. (I just modified this part now since it popped up lol).
  • The stats to be acquired require different amounts of materials.
  • The total amount of material is a fixed value (for now lets go with 10 as sample).
  • The stats of the final product can end up positive or negative according to the amount used.
  • You can name the gear whatever you want (profanity filter enable) and the enhancing indicator would be between brackets (ex.: Blood Hunger Knife [+11]) to avoid possible scams.

It’s a complex system to implement, but not impossible tbh.

As for changing skills, instead of massive skill change, could simple change the element used in the skill? Like in D3 when you pick some runes, some have different elements.

#3

the way i see it:
-rank 7 era, bunch of white blue purple orange recipe with farmable material
-rank 8 era, introducing RNG material (practo) and RNG recipe (orange recipe)
-present time, hunting ground’s dropped highDPKlowRNG cube with RNG crafted equipment with RNG socket
-incoming: practo accessories with material dropped from WB

1 Like
#4

Regardless of the exact method of achieving items, we simply need more. More variety, more options, more decisions, more specialization, more personalisation. TOS should continue to be about choice, different paths of progression, and a sense of building the exact build you set out to do. The earlier game while still needing improvement, did it better than the later game, I feel as if R8 is far from completed and hearing about R9 almost makes me confused.

Now that IMC has improved the Combat System, it opens the door for more equipment options and progression. I hope they use the advantage they created to its full potential.

3 Likes
#5

This so much. Everyone is wearing the same gears in this game.

1 Like
#6

@Nirimetus I like the modular gear idea that you propose. It helps a lot for those who needs specific gears for their off-meta builds.

One aspect which is removed/yet to be implemented for the current iToS itemisation is amulets. If we look at the tos.neet.tv equipment list now, we can see that there is an additional no. of amulets below the sockets. Perhaps that’s the modularity that we need but not in the current iteration of the game yet.

It was in the game during CBT. Not sure about the reason why they took it out. Maybe it was taken out cuz they want it to be a content feature in future?

Amulets can have so many things in line for them, like skill element changes, or additional damage against certain types of enemies, or proc certain effects etc. This also encourages players to experiment with weapon switching even when their build doesn’t require it. (Example, using a weapon with chance to freeze proc to change mob to ice then switching to another weapon augmented lightning element amulet to deal more damage)

@Queue

Agree with what you say. ToS’s itemisation just totally stopped after the player reaches R7 with 0 interesting equipment past the item level 220 bracket. Everything after level 220 is a single choice formula, 1x blue HG, 1x purple HG, 1x purple practo, 1x orange practo, 1x earth tower, 1x solmiki variant.

The game feels unfinished, especially for one which puts grinding for gear as its first priority now for progression.

I too hope for the day where even 2 players have the same build (even with meta builds like C2 Diev1 Sadhu3 PD2), their playstyle and way of approaching monsters is totally different due to their gear choices. This is the way that we can achieve class diversity.

@STAFF_Letitia, @STAFF_Amy
Can we request for a dev blog/interview for itemisation in ToS? Would really like to hear how the developers feel about itemisation for the game, especially for the current state in iToS and kToS.

5 Likes
#7

This. The problem is not the choices but too much RNG + unbalance equipment stats. Equipment are inherently stronger for magic classes leaving huge gap against physical classes. This should be top priority when it comes to balancing equipment. Removing weapon restriction for physical classes is also there. Why the heck magic classes can afford to use 1 type of weapon for all of their classes while physical have to carefully plan their class path because of weapon restriction?

Since IMC shamefully buff blunt weapon to have physical + magic attack for another convenience of OP classes why dont they do the same for underwhelming classes that needed those type of convenience?

#8

I really want to break it down either here or in my own thread somewhere down the line, but that’s basically it. There are just no options, which is confusing for a game that has so many classes, especially now that gear is even more important, and I’m further confused by IMC always intending for it to be gear focused even before the Combat Update, I’m really not sure what went wrong other than some of the ideas we talked about on Discord. There should be a minimum of x2+ of each grade of equipment, (perhaps with a Legendary exception) and that includes accessories, with unique non-standard equips too. There is so much potential in content variety here, IMC just needs to utilize it.

2 Likes
#9

I also like to add that the card system in in this game is so ■■■■.
It’s either glassmole or chappa.

I like to propose that cards should have unique effects on skills.

Example:
Card adds +[star] hits to fireball
Card adds +[star]/2 AOE ratio to certain mergen skills.
etc.

This system can diversify class builds so much if done correctly

2 Likes
#10

Saw this on the dev interview article today.

Quoted: HOD

Another thing I would like to mention is that, as pointed out by many of our players before, a lot of the fields in Tree of Savior often get ignored after the quests are complete or they’re “skipped” altogether. We’re only trading DPK for a probability-based system now, but we have other things in mind to improve the fun aspect of farming in fields, which we hope will help bring more life into those forgotten maps.

The main reason why so many beautiful and nicely developed maps with fully fleshed out monsters and their AIs are deserted is due to the overall lack of a reason/purpose for players to go there. Adding things such as dungeon entrances, fishing etc wouldn’t help much since most of the players whose purpose is to fish or join a dungeon there will just stay at that particular small location on the map until their run is up or till they caught their fishes.They usually wouldn’t bother to explore and stay fighting the monsters there, enjoy the scenery and such.

Sincerely hope that IMC will consider adding more itemisation into the game, these are the keys that will draw players to go to maps that aren’t populated at all now. Just look at how many players go farm 315 materials, blue tini horns, battle bracelets etc and you will know what kind of things to add to bring more players into maps.

2 Likes
#11

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