Tree of Savior Forum

Let's Discuss the Math of Enhancement

Introduction

The topic of enhancement is a hot topic of debate within the Tree of Savior community as it plays a huge role in deciding what content a player is able to participate in. Due to the randomness involved in the process, a huge gap in power can arise between the players, leading to a lot of strong feelings about what is reasonable and doable. This very same randomness leads to a lot of misunderstanding about what is likely versus unlikely. Since the typical player doesn’t have a whole lot of resources, it is difficult for them to gain a proper understanding of the randomness behind enhancement. It doesn’t help that the typical human being is already ill-equipped to understand randomness.

Since I’m a nerd I decided to try to actually figure out the chances and costs behind enhancement. All of this is under the assumption that there are no tricks to improve your chances; there are no special times or places or ways to enhance. Every event is independent and you can’t influence the outcome. With this in mind I set up some Monte Carlo simulations in Matlab. This sort of approach basically involves using a whole lot of random samples to get at a solution. In this case, it is to answer the questions of how likely it is to achieve a certain enhancement and how much that would cost. Simulation by large numbers allows us to address the problem of not having enough resources to do this in game. As long as the probability table that I am using is correct, the results should accurately reflect what would happen in game.

If you are interested in the code that I used, you can find a paste of it here. I won’t really go into the technical details here unless someone asks me, but just note that enhancement costs were taken for a masinios bow. The costs would scale proportionately if you used a different piece of equipment. I guess the other thing worth pointing out is that I went in under the assumption that I had 8 potential ‘to work with’ since I would want to reserve 5 of the available 13 potential on a masinios bow for slots. This number would change if I were willing to go golden sockets or if the equip had a different amount of potential to work with.

The Case for Remaking

One approach for obtaining a high enhancement is to just try many times on many weapons using normal anvils. This is the typical approach for players that sell enhanced equipment since using diamond anvils is too cost-prohibitive to turn a profit. Surprisingly, this method won’t cost you as much as you might expect. In these simulations I set it so that it quits when it hits a goal. So if the goal were +11, then the trial would stop when going from +10 to +11, and thus the results would exclude a case where it went from +12 to +11 and then gave up.

The figure here shows the results from my simulations. The lines represent the mean and the error bars represent +/- one standard deviation, so a range covering 68% of the results. One must be a bit wary reading too much into the standard deviation, though, because the distribution is actually heavily skewed and not actually a symmetric normal distribution. I still show it just to get a sense of the variability in results.

Let’s look at specifically the case of making a +16 so we can understand how to read this plot. Here, the cost of enhancement has a mean of 33m, with a lower and upper bound to the error bars at 9m and 57m, respectively. The number of weapons made has a mean of 5.2 with a lower and upper bound of 1 and 9.4, respectively. What this means is that on average you would go through 5.2 weapons and spend a total of 33m across all the weapons trying to enhance them to make a single +16. Be wary of randomness though! This isn’t a guarantee that all you need is 5 weapons and 33m; it’s just an average.

To get a sense of the true total cost you’d need to factor in the price of each weapon. That isn’t too hard since you’d just multiply the cost of one weapon with the total number of weapons required and then add that to the rest of the silver spent. So if it costs you 5m per weapon, then on average it’d cost 26m in weapons and 33m in enhancements for a total of 59m silver.

One takeaway from this result is that players selling +16 weapons for over 100m are actually making a huge profit doing this. Another is that you need a lot of money to sustain this. Even though on average you might need 33m to enhance a +16, you need to be rich enough to take a hit of 60m (or maybe even more) and still feel like it’s okay to keep going.

The Case for Golden Anvils

I always wondered if golden anvils were useful for pushing past +11. The effect of resetting back to +11 if you fail while above +11 reeks of ‘trap,’ but I couldn’t help but wonder what it takes to push your luck far enough. In these simulations, the weapon starts at +6 and tries until the target enhancement was achieved.

In this figure we have the amount of golden anvils consumed in blue and the cost of using them in orange. The number of anvils consumed is the same regardless of whether they’re shining or not, but if they’re shining then the cost of enhancement is zero. If you’re using shining golden anvils, you’d then have to factor in the cost of buying all of them.

This plot suggests that if you got screwed over and ended up with a +6 weapon that you wanted to fix and get back to +11 then it’d take you about 19 golden anvils on average to pull that off. If you were ambitious and wanted to make it to +16, then on average you might expect to need something like 300 golden anvils. If you were forced to buy those golden anvils off the market at 3m each that’d cost you 900m! If I were making a masinios weapon at 100m per attempt, I’d be better off just remaking the weapon since that’d take 533m on average. If the weapon somehow cost 200m to make, I might consider buying shining golden anvils and attempting until I make it to +16.

The Case for Diamond Anvils

Again I wondered what it’d be like if I had all the money in the world. In this case, I wondered what it’d be like if I could use as many diamond anvils as I liked. So I set up the simulation to be the same as the normal anvil case (where it’d bring in a new weapon if a target enhancement wasn’t reached) but it’d instead switch over to diamond anvils after +5. Here’s the modified code.

These two figures show how many attempts would need to be made to make a certain enhancement level. For example, if you wanted to make a +16 weapon, on average you’d go through about 1.6 weapons, spend 28.5m in enhancement silver, and use 19.5 diamond anvils. Surprisingly, even with the triple price of diamond anvils, you’d spend less on enhancing than you would with normal anvils. Unfortunately, diamond anvils cost a lot. If you’re going by Klaipeda’s prices this would cost you about 1 billion silver to buy all the diamond anvils you’d need. Right now this seems to be the least cost-efficient route towards acquiring a +16.

Diamond anvils are probably the best way to get past +16, but seeing how cost-prohibitive it is, I’ll just leave this cumulative distribution plot describing how hard it actually is getting to the highest enhancement levels we see in the game today.

A quick read of this cumulative distribution plot suggests that there is a 14% chance of not making it to +11 while using all diamond anvils, a 50% of making it to +15 and a 2% of getting past +24. Oof. You can still get really punished while using only diamond anvils, and the people with ultra-high enhancement levels are both extremely wealthy and extremely lucky.

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RIP. I’m neither of the two. I’ll settle with my +11 and try to have fun instead of frustrate myself again hahaha.

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I was able to get a +16 rod and +16 spear through series of attempts. The +16 rod was after about 3 different rods failed to get there, the spear was like 6 or 7 spears and I only got there after spam upgrading from +11 at 0 potential lol.

Needless to say my luck was pretty decent, given that you could mow through 10 or more weapons for one +16 if you fall on the poor side of luck.

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I think I learned this in the worst way possible, already wasted 12 Primus shields, 5 Staffs, 4 Rods, 3 Maces, 2 Rapiers, one Laitas top and one Ausuras gloves, and not even a single one of them got to +16… At this point I just gave up and started buying +16s from other people

There was a time where I was totally happy with +11 and I still want to believe that most content in the game is doable with +11 as long as you invest in transcendence. Velcoffer is going to upend that, but that’s what end-game challenges are supposed to be like. Eventually I got to a point where trying to get past +11 was the most reasonable upgrade for me so I tried pushing past that. I also really wanted a shiny weapon.

Edit: +11 with transcendence of like 9 or 10 would probably still be fine, after thinking about it a bit. Hopefully. I’d have to wait and see what Velcoffer has to offer first.

Pretty decent luck indeed! 10 attempts is like the poor side of what’s reasonable… It’s entirely possible to fall even further outside what’s reasonable. It’s possible, and I could see someone that has fallen on such a bad streak not believing these sort of results.

I think the gamble can be thrilling and I love trying to prove myself right (who doesn’t) so I’d continue to try even if I failed that much! That being said, I understand how bad that can feel and why someone wouldn’t want to take that sort of gamble. Hopefully these sort of numbers give a better sense of the ‘value’ of an enhanced equip.

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I’m fine with Rng like dungeon cubes and item appraisal, what makes me feel bad is how important enhancement value is, the whole thing feels really punishing, especially when you farm so much to craft/buy something like a Masinios only to get punished by the Rng gods. I feel bad for my guildmates because all my salt from enhancement fails goes to guild chat lol.

But I think next week’s weapon base dmg buff and transcendance changes will make enhancing less of a priority, so I got something to look forward to. Anyways, thanks for your insight, especially on golden anvil rng, now I know I’ll only ever use them to get failed equips to +11 at best

I’ll always try to reach +11 on my weapons. If I need to go further, I take a pocket Thaum3 with me.
:haha:

Oh, and congratulations. This study is very well done and will help people understand what’s the safest way to enhance their gear. @Sarutobi has a vid showing how to use this knowledge to make money in the game:

Now we need an experimental design to assess the influence of ping, FPS and location on the enhancement success rate. It’s a common belief that enhancing items in empty maps or instances (idk if we can still use anvils inside the Awakening Dungeon), closing all the tabs of your inventory or emptying it and hiding the chat and the shout bar may increase your odds.

Are there any youtube videos of players using only diamond anvils from +5 or +6?
+16 should not be needed for velcopter raid because the majority of players don’t bother to cap attributes from their strongest skills.

The thing that annoys me especially is that we don’t have several difficulty modes with according rewards ( easy, normal, hard, very hard)

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I went from +14 all the way down to +4 on a Masinios Bow. I had already got it to trans 8 and decided that I didn’t have anything I really felt like spending on at the moment so I decide to try enhancing. I ended up using the 30 golden anvils from drops that I had saved getting it to fall and then had to go scrounge up money for another 60 shining golden anvils to get it back up. It was a dark week when I had it sitting at +5…

I’m really glad for this update! I like that it closes the gap somewhat! It also gives me hope that they’ll change the enhancement system in some way. I’m going to try to get the most out of it in its current state, but I don’t think it’s a system that actually feels that great.

Thanks! Unfortunately I think that probabilistic things are difficult for people to wrap their minds around. Responses to that video sort of reflect that, while I think that the results are actually pretty average. I wouldn’t enhance-until-broken though. I think knowing when to give up is important in making a profit from enhancement.

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My TOS experience in a nutshell. Hahaha.

I’ve broken (upgraded until full gem slot potential) dozens of Primus and have never gotten anything past +14.

The only +16 I ever made was a Geras Spear but that was more than a year ago as shown in the video below (it’s +15 in the vid but i eventually made it +16) and it’s pretty much a decorative on the wall now:

I’ve been trying to buy +16 ever since but these days hardly anyone makes them just to sell in Telsiai.

I’ve decided to just settle and be happy with +11 and compensate using transcendence and skill attributes. If my math is correct, at trans lv.10 I’m just losing about 10% weapon power using a +11 weapon instead of a +16.

To add, I don’t believe in those “tips and tricks”. One could say I’ve tried them all (except for any sort of hacking/exploit of course) and I just got disappointed every time.

RNGesus is the only way!

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What’s the best way to farm golden anvils by the way (besides farming silver and buying shining ones from other players)?

Hunting Grounds are currently the only way to farm Golden Anvils. They can drop from any HG monster (0.02% chance).

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Kind did this discussion on another thread, though no maths involved and just complaints in the enhancement system itself, and the need for it to achieve proper dps.

Since not everyone can afford it, people start going through budget AA builds with blessing+AA line abuse.

You can’t expect everyone to get +16 T5+ really, some are extremely pissed after failing multiple times that they either quit already or started buying from other people(they demand by the way, is very high, staff is a good example). You can even sell a completely trash primus raffye +16 staff 5+pot for 130m in Telsiai.

AA is indeed very effective to conquer later content if you can’t afford it, because if everyone AAing with a total 100k± per hit is better than having a full fledged +16-21 T10 dealing damage against velcoffer. Why is it better? Well, you can’t really find a lot of people having that much investment.

We may be able to clear velcoffer with less investment non+16, but too much time wasted isn’t really productive either. With KR velcoffer vids uploaded I’m sure most people would follow the AA team path with either a dragoon tank or a WL aggro holder than the god doppel (or others for that matter) slayer path.

I always use CM6/7 as a basis for harder content because:
ET is easy
Everything else in the game is easy
WB is just Bosses, not a mixture of both high end monsters and bosses.
I don’t value rewards, just difficulty and possible basis for harder content in the future.

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Extremely wealthy and extremely lucky

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Lo*tac will you ever stop repeating the same //// about AA? You trolled far too many noobs already with these not so smart ideas.

With masinios skin? Some people may be using a modified version of the item link addon to troll shout chat. It should still be possible, you can forge fake items.

Hello, Briquetting.

/20chars

Briquetting a +31 weapon? Destroying a masi in the process and gambling min and max attack?
:thinking: