That’s fair enough, at least from all the feedback given. As long as it’s only the early stages that they balance out in that regard.
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the issue. The problem ISN’T that grind exists in the game - ToS is built for fun, flashy grind that shakes the screen and gives the player immense satisfaction.
The current cap is level 200. Around level 31, when you start to reach quest walls, it takes about an hour of non-stop grinding to level up one time. The problem with this is that, at this stage in the game, you have very few abilities and map options, making it less enjoyable for the player.
You have almost NO content unlocked, and the game wants you to spend hours working with next to nothing just to unlock a sliver more of content. At later stages in the game when you are a higher rank and have access to stronger abilities and more maps to visit, this level of grind makes more sense. The player is then more willing to spend so much time to unlock more content because they have a lot to work with.
In short, the current exp curve doesn’t fit the amount of content the game has to offer. A wall at level 30 shouldn’t exist.
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Ok, this might be an odd view point, but I think that might be the reason they have the grind starts out then.
You’ve been introduced to stories and quests.
You’ve been introduced to the more aggressive dungeons.
Now they’re just letting you into the further extreme of it: Grinding mobs to discover new equipments, ON YOUR OWN MOTIVATION.
If you’re a new player, meeting it this early means you can decide if this sort of experiences is for you and whether to continue the game or not.
While I’ll agree this period last a bit too long (I’m probably continuing Tenet Garden after I hit 32), we have to remember that since this is our first character everyone will be slows, but after you reach high level with one character, the next will be a breeze to level up, either through pumping up the damage attributes or just having +5’d weapon ready to use (that +5 really make a difference)
@peek427 Nice clarification, hopefully people get an idea of why the current set up is wrong. In agreement with OP.
@rofldat While that is an interesting perspective, its not the case. I have a +5 weapon, have made many many characters in kCBT, so I know where to grind, but the issue is still there.
Your post falls down to this:
Now if the KR version was the same as this, then this is viable. But why would the KR rates be better than iCBT rates? The way the game feels and progresses is vastly different there, than here. I would love to continue the game there, but most definitely not here with these rates. This should not be the case, both versions should give that equal point of view when it comes to progress/experience rates.
If you can provide more of an argument, I’ll add it to the OP.
If you’re a new player, meeting it this early means you can decide if this sort of experiences is for you and whether to continue the game or not.
This would be poor game design. Developers want people to PLAY their game. Why would they want people to quit before they’ve experienced a very large majority of the game’s content? Actually, why would they want players to quit at all? With the logic you are using, it would make more sense for the walls to occur later, because the players would spend more time on the game (and potentially money) before they end up quitting.
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I think the fact that KR doesn’t have this problem might be what stems them to make this.
For example, let’s say they get feedback from KR side that there’s too much grinding after 3rd circle (just make up scenario, adjust the number to what you know is when the grind starts in KR)
Their meeting could’ve went like this:
A: So people are complaining there’s too much grinding.
B: But we designed the over world grind to be rewarding too…
C: Wait, at what point do they start complaining?
A: After 3rd circle.
B: Do we have any intro point to overworld farming before then?
C: So they’re experiencing this for the first time, and the contrast is too strong from the ‘do quest -> next quest’?
B: We should acclimate them to it earlier then.
C: Yeah, but since this server is used to that flow, changing it will causes a big negative backlash, that’ll influence the feedbacks.
B: How about the international version then? There’ll be fresh faces there so the backlash should be weaker.
A: OK, we can do that then.
And we reach here…?
I try to reverse exploring to consider what train of thought lead to here so I’m not exactly good at providing arguments…
On that note, a question to you: If you didn’t know about the KR experiences, or ANY MMO experiences at all (because other MMOs you progress more or less on quests alone), do you think your opinion will be different? Even with this lower rate I still got my Priest to lv 30 with fairly casual solo grind.
(Not a serious question so you don’t have to think too hard on it)
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Well if it takes 1 day at near lvl 200 to gain 1 lvl, that’s quite bad. Considering ToS is marketing its 80 classes, and I expect most players here plan to play several characters in different classes… leveling just 1 character is already hell, will just discourage players to try other classes.
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Well, it’s just a hope of mine, that games will not try to deceive by hiding its true color or using skinner box technique, and that they’ll entice player through that true color alone.
If ToS will have grind, rather than trying to hide it with quests until later on, just show it early, and the player either choose to accepts this will happen or call it then.
Also, are you sure THAT is the kind of game you want to play? One that try to trick you into paying money first, before revealing its true color? Or one that uses skinner box to keep you playing forever?
Tos isn’t hiding the fact that this game will require grinding? Most players see it coming, for any mmo. The problem is that the xp rates is a little ridiculous at lv25+, especially since rank 2 classes have limited skill sets and mana problems. Grinding shouldn’t start within the early stages of the game.
Also, it’s player’s decision to invest money in a game. If i like what im playing, ill support the game. A xp wall at such an early stage will actually discourage players imo. It’s like telling me that there’s no content other than grinding.
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I don’t know about other classes, but I’m Priest and with my +5 Morningstar I can 4-shot Panto and other enemies nearby just holding down Z (2-shot on the brown seed since it’s weak to it) so long as I’m hitting at least 2 enemies with each swing my progress is not that slow.
And, this is in hindsight but, I found recipe for Goat Horn from one of the further area (require 86 Panto horns to make) so I have motivation to grind it.
Lastly, I think a game that shows it will have grind early will have less…disappointment? When there’s grind late game, compare to if a game is smooth failing until end game then it’s massive grind (i.e. Destiny or other MMOs that doesn’t have many raiding content at max level)
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Do people really can’t comprehend that the issue isn’t you have to grind its that the grind is insanely unreasonable? Has any of you even hit lvl 30? coz anyone who say this grind is remotely ok have not the wall at 30 because anyone who experience that stupid grind at 27+ ish would know its not remotely enjoyable grinding experience at all. You have all 2-3 skills that drain all your sp instantly with barely any good spots to grind at.
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For beta x3 x4 exp rate should be fair to test content little bit further.I had a dream of testing monk but,I guess its impossible for me to test it, after leveling/grinding for a day.
But for the release, x1.5 exp rates can be fine.You will still have to grind but maybe 1-2 lvl when you complete all the quests till 30. not like 22-30.
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I think you have to consider other people with the EXP rates. Many people who are hyped for ToS or are interested in it have not played ragnarok online. I know for a fact only 1/6 of my friends will do whatever it takes to enjoy the game, but what about my other 5? They don’t have time for this anymore, and I barely do too. Why should the grind start so early? If the exp rate is still this low for the release, it’ll get an awful reception, and it’ll only keep in a niche of players who really want to invest time into the game to enjoy it. I still don’t understand why the grind is defended, not all people who want to play this game are people who have their whole summer off and will their life away in games the whole summer. I’m sure you won’t find it fun anymore if there isn’t a large playerbase? It’s necessary to keep all types of people playing to keep other people to stay. If a game has low population, it becomes increasingly harder to enjoy. How can people enjoy the diverse class system and combos if they have to grind barebones for a while before they can even reach that point in the game? They don’t. Probably a number as high as 70-80% will stop once they discover that they must grind a long time to even reach those points, and guess what? You have to include other interests. Why should they bother their time in ToS?- when they could use that time for anything else entertaining. They don’t. As much as it’s really cool to bring back the old ragnarok style about, just look at how the culture has changed. People have many more other games to play besides mmos even. This will just push them away. I’m just arguing that this grind has many many cons, and I’m sure it’ll be changed in the next cbts, but this is what I believe will happen if they weren’t, or were just slightly changed.
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Honestly I’m not at all looking forward to the reversion of this game to a WoW style questing system where you just quest to max level like it’s a joke. But it will inevitably happen, if only on international servers.
It is honestly kind of ridiculous that we expect this from games now.
ToS simply isn’t the kind of game where you grind to max level so you can start the “true” game at the “end game”. ToS is a game designed to be fun and challenging from the start. Leveling isn’t a tutorial, it is an ingrained and deep part of the game. Breaking up the questing monotony with some blue hunting or field grinding is part of what will keep the game interesting into level 600+.
Leveling to high levels will be a huge achievement that makes players and their characters famous, like it used to on old RO.
If you feel held back by being a low level then you’re simply approaching this game incorrectly. It isn’t like other MMOs. The “real game” of ToS doesn’t start at max level. The whole game from level 1 is the “real game” unlike most other MMOs. If you’re not having fun early on, it’s not the grind’s fault, you just simply don’t like this kind of game. It won’t get better as it goes on.
Please please don’t reduce ToS to a questing tutorial to max level so you can start the ‘real’ end game. I want a game that bucks the new trends and returns to the old ones, a game where the actual PROCESS of leveling and improving and socialising is the game itself, not a game where the process is a waste of time that people want to skip over with as many distractions as possible.
And please, think a bit about what you’re expecting out of ToS. If you’re expecting to be able to hit max level and go raiding and PvPing… you’ve got the wrong game. If you’re expecting a charming social game where the pace is slow and those at the top earned their accolates. A game where you can become known for being a high level or a good PvP or that guy with the super rare weapon. Then ToS IS the game you want. Don’t try and turn it into every other modern MMO, please.
Ask yourself how long you think it should take to get to max level. I almost gaurentee you, if you’ve coming from the point of view of WoW or any other modern MMO, then ToS will take magnitudes more time than that. And that is a GOOD thing.
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ToS simply isn’t the kind of game where you grind to max level so you can start the “true” game at the “end game”.
Nobody in the thread has said anything about wanting this.
Leveling to high levels will be a huge achievement that makes players and their characters famous, like it used to on old RO.
Alright. Since people keep bringing up RO, let me set the record straight. First off, RO’s max level was 99, and leveling up once at level 30 in VANILLA RO still didn’t take as long as it does in ToS.
More importantly, there were TONS of places you could grind. This is why early grind WORKED. You could explore and find all sorts of maps to kill monsters on. It was part of the adventure. Different classes could grind on different things and in different ways due to their unique abilities. The diversity of content EARLY ON IN THE GAME made it successful despite how grindy it was.
This ISN’T the case with ToS. Map progression in ToS is linear. There aren’t multiple starting towns or tons of fields to explore and kill things in. Every class grinds effectively the same way (as opposed to RO, where mages could firewall to train on higher level things, acolytes could train effectively on undead due to heal bombing, archers could outrange Greater Generals), and they grind in the same areas.
Grinding for hours, then, makes more sense LATER ON in ToS, when there is more diversity in the content of the game. Classes will get more specialized and more maps will be available, so every single person isn’t forced to do the exact same thing with zero uniquity.
Again, ToS can’t afford to have such a stupid curve so early in the game. It doesn’t have what RO had available at the start of the game. Not at all. There is nothing charming, immersive, or adventurous about everyone running around like a bunch of bots in tenet garden for 4 hours.
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Everything this guy said!
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Lets not pretend anyone is saying ToS is perfect how it is. It is beta, it will need adjustment, of course. But what people are complaining about here isn’t the grind, it’s the potential grind to max level, and it’s the lack of quests holding your hand through every level. The fact that level caps are even coming up in a thread about EXP rates shows that people are concerned about it. If people were truly only bothered by the grind at 30, then you’re telling me that people are being put off because of a single hour to level? No they’re put off by a single hour to level in the context of a modern MMO culture that says “max level is everything” and max level in ToS being 200+ levels away.
The fact is that almost every MMO player now a days has been very strongly trained by modern MMOs to feel a very strong pressure to level up as quick as possible, because in most MMOs that really is the only thing that matters; being max level. An hour grind for a level at level 30 is nothing. Even modern MMOs where max level = start of the game, have grinds much longer than that.
As an aside: looking at level 30 as level 30 out of 99 or level 30 out of 600+ is exactly the kind of max-level focused attitude I’m talking about. It’s implicitly pointing out that you’ve got so many more “to go” or it’s such a small amount of progress looking at the overall goal of max level, and thus the grind is unjustifiable. But the whole point of this kind of leveling system is that you’re not really expected to reach max level. It’s not level 30 out of anything, it’s just level 30. So that kind of argument really has no bearing on the game.
I grinded for uncountable hours on PSO when I first played it and only ever go to level 100 or so, out of 200, or was it 250? I forget. But did that make it a bad game? Did it mean I didn’t have fun because I didn’t get upto max level? Was it not fun because I had to run the exact same zones over and over and the zones never varied by class? No, it was fun because the gameplay was fun, and the gameplay was about the progress, it was about the journey; not about max level. It was fun because I played it with friends, and it was social. Just like other older style MMOs ala RO and ToS and Ultima Online, etc.
If this has absolutely nothing to do with the false pressure to get to max level, then answer me this: Would an hour grind at 30 be unjustified if the max level was 31? My answer is no.
It’s only ‘unjustified’ if you’re suffering from maxlevelitis and the max level is 600 levels away.
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I played RO to max level. I’m level 36 and facing over an hours worth of grind to level up once.
If we translate these numbers (36 out or 500+) into RO terms. I’m a level 7 novice and it’s going to take me about 4-6 hours of grinding to hit level 8.
Also, I’ve datamined the game. If these numbers are correct, the grind at higher levels is going to be the worst that has ever existed in a game. Infact, getting to level 300 is going to be impossible because the game will be dead long before that happens (people themselves might die of old age before that happens).
What’s even the point in adding that many levels and all that high level stuff when no ones ever going to reach it?
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He said that games like RO as an example have lots of interesting contents to explorer early on (a lot of low level, interesting maps, different leveling places for different character types, etc) while ToS feels quite limited, there doesn’t have much to enjoy in early game, monsters often get much stronger from map to map. Heck I wandered around as a novice almost the whole first week and it was pretty enjoyable for me. The attractive points of ToS is its huge class system but at this rate I wonder when you will start seeing these classes. If things keep like that I bet there will be some classes and skills you will never see anyone uses in the game since they are useless for grinding and grinding is all that is to do now. If you ask me why not party then the answer is parties don’t really like having anyone dragging them down.
BTW, I bring up RO as an example, I don’t expect it to be RO or anything. Just in case if someone want to push words into my mouth.
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Again, this is simply the wrong way to think about it. See my post above.
Anyway, the grind isn’t that different from vanilla RO grind at official server rates (x1) and with a class that doesn’t level too great (or only levels with zenny, and you’re poor). It is probably faster than early RO transcendant classes. It’s only modern RO that is super fast.
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