Tree of Savior Forum

The biggest problem with modern MMOs

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#1

There isn’t enough things to do.

It’s always click the npc, get a quest, do the quest, return the quest.

What made RO great was there was always a lot of things you could do regardless of level or progression in game.

In RO you could:

  • Grind for xp
  • Grind for zeny
  • Grind for consumables
  • Grind for equipment
  • Grind for enchantments (cards)
  • Grind for equipment enhancement (elu/ori)
  • Grind for crafting mats
  • Do a quest (real storytelling, not some generic shit quest)
  • Do a class change quest (actually involved quests)
  • Do a quest to get access to dungeon (really long, takes a few days for some quests)
  • Craft consumables
  • Fight a boss
  • Fight other people
  • Form a party (it took real time)
  • Form a guild
  • Do guild events
  • Help a new player
  • Help a new player more
  • Discover new items
  • Discover new builds
  • Discover new places
  • Do an instanced dungeon
  • Do WOE
  • Prepare for WOE
  • Organize for WOE

There are many other things that I may have missed of course. But you get my point.

In ToS you can:

  • Grind for xp
  • Grind quests (the quests are no fun)
  • Grind for silver
  • Grind for equips
  • Grind for gems
  • Grind endless bosses (they’re like glorified normal mob really)
  • Do a dungeon once / twice / limited times a day
  • PvP
  • Crafting is just an extended drop system (get that recipe).

And all of that in the same progression path. Those that are more self directed:

  • Field boss
  • PvP
  • Grind equips
  • discover builds
  • discover items

Not trying to bash ToS, but this kinda demonstrates the game play issue we have with ToS (it’s boring, there isn’t enough things to do).

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#2

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Sexist TP Costs?
#3

Hey guys, look! It’s another person glorifying their experience on RO and comparing it to ToS!

On a more serious note I can get on board with what you’re saying, ToS definitely needs some more features, but ATM the game isn’t even released so we have no idea what the future holds.

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#4

@CookyKim

well you should correct RO info to what RO was at launch not on expansions. besides most RO popularity were credited to the PRIVATE SERVERS.

its pretty much all Nostalgia

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#5

I’d like to see secret areas and quests. Like talking to a random NPC may reveal a clue. Or you talk to a few npc’s and put the clues together. These clues point to a new map or some sort of treasure. That kind of stuff.

Maybe put in very rare events so only a handful of players experience them. Either because they found something unique or something of the like. Sure others miss out but then that event becomes somewhat of a legend in the game.

Some good ideas in these videos as well:

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#6

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#7

@Karjalainen

But this is 2016… not 2004, a full 11/12 years since. Don’t have to reinvent the wheel every time you make a new game now do you?

I picked RO as an example for a few reasons. A large part of the community here are RO veterans, it’s also the MMO I have the most experience in (and still play till today).

Not trying to glorify RO and piss on ToS as I have said in the OP. I’ve been thinking about this issue for a while and it struck me today that it’s not the linear progression, it’s not the P2W, it’s not the game balance, but simply that the game doesn’t have sufficient content.

Sure this is beta, and I hope it improves, however unlikely.

#8

You again, always the sama people.

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#9

At least it’s not the same topic. :sleeping:

@The_Fox

That video is pretty close to the core issue.

However, I have to say that besides RO, I’ve also quite involved in a persistent world of Never winter 1, where they had far less tools to develop that world but still made it better than most MMOs out there.

#10

Sorry, but when RO was released there wasn’t much to do as well. Don’t compare an “old” MMO to a closed beta.

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#11

/20char why is it even implemented?

#12

Most of the things you say you can do in RO, you can also do in ToS.

All I really spent most of my RO days doing (and what I would like to be able to do in ToS) was:

  • farming -> you can do this in ToS, but there isn’t as many items as RO so there isn’t quite as much to farm. (hopefully this changes over time)
  • getting mats for WoE -> no comment until a WoE-like system is implemented
  • WoE -> see above
  • MVPing -> world boss fights have too many people, and are too chaotic for my liking. I would like Mini-World Bosses to be added that have random spawns, decent drops, and can be taken down by a single party and/or a strong/skilled solo player
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#13

Never experienced Neverwinter. To be fair though I think ToS will probably implement more features and expand the world more in the future. I like secrets and exploration so I’m kind of hoping more of that gets implemented down the line :stuck_out_tongue:

I know you mentioned that it’s 2016 not 2004 but development costs aren’t any cheaper than they were 12 years ago. There is only so much you can do before a profit has to be made. So I think being so cynical towards ToS for not having enough content is a bit unfair. Maybe wait a year and res this thread again.

That being said, your list of issues I think are somewhat valid. There have been other MMO’s with more content at launch but maybe ToS has a smaller budget.

#14

The card system in RO is great. One that should be emulated in some way.

A set of rare items with low drop rate from each mob; useful regardless of level; and farmed at any level.

I have hope when looking over the database at monster gems. If those became upgradeable - up to 5 stars? Check - all of the above.

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#15

You’re comparing a polished RO that’s been around for over a decade, to ToS whose Korean release isn’t even half a year old.

Who knows what ToS might be like if it’s still running strong 5 years from now? It’s not really a fair comparison.

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#16

All your points mentioned can be done in ToS… Except that WoE or GVG is not quite the same, but a similar GVG system or war system exists.

#17

I do agree that ToS has a lot of potential to be great. They have this large world with beautiful assets.

However the only thing I care to do when I log in is to continue where I left off in the quest chain.

Whereas RO / Neverwinter has me thinking, “hmm what do I want to do today, out of all the options I have?”. I find that to be a really problematic game play issue.

The argument that this will be available after the main quest line is complete doesn’t resolve the issue. A game with limited content and replay value doesn’t magically have tons of content at end game when there’s arguably less things to do (check RO2).

RO & Neverwinter had a tremendous replay value. I’ve visited the same places for thousands of times, each for a different reason. Neverwinter had a significantly smaller world than RO but the replay value was even greater. The same setting is reused over and over and over and over for myriad of game play possibilities.

As of now there isn’t much reason to return to lower level in ToS. Imagine all those hard work creating the world, where it will only be traveled once / twice on our path to soft cap.

@Divini
I’m not trying to compare / bash ToS. My point is the lack of content, using RO as a familiar example.

RO being polished over a decade doesn’t lessen the issue that the content / replay value of ToS is low.

@TankezonE
In a way yes, but somehow it feels different because RO felt much more open / self directed, while ToS seems to be hand holding you the whole way there. I don’t know if this is because of the 3x Exp rate we had on CBT, but it didn’t feel as though I had a lot of options besides grinding for the next quest in the chain… The maps are chained together like candy crush levels where you move from one to the next in the exact same fashion no matter how many time you reroll a new character.

Let me sum it up real simple.

I’m already tired thinking I have to bring another character through lvl 1 - 100+ in the exact same fashion I did in iCBT1, and iCBT2

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#18

The biggest problem with modern MMOs for me is the players. Players, for the most part, can set the tone for an MMO by how introverted or outgoing they are, how welcoming veterans are to new players, etc. These are things that can keep a player logging in even when everything else about the game feels like something they’ve already played before.

However great a game is, people tend to quit regardless when they’re playing it alone for long periods of time. If ToS fails on anything, it will be the lack of incentive for players to interact with one another and build lasting relationships. In RO(or most games, really), you met people while out in the field or crawling through Payon or Byalan Dungeon. Glast Heim is where many a young Acolyte struck up a friendship with an elder Priest who happened to wander by and help them out with Resurrection.

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#19

I’m afraid the auto party system in iCBT2 isn’t helping with this issue at all. And also the level range limitation only worsens this issue…

#20

Didn’t you split some similar points? like

  • Do WOE
  • Prepare for WOE
  • Organize for WOE
    …

Honestly, I think we do most of those things:

  • Grind for xp (YES)
  • Grind for zeny (YES, silver)
  • Grind for consumables (YES)
  • Grind for equipment (YES)
  • Grind for enchantments (cards) (YES, normal gems and monster gems)
  • Grind for equipment enhancement (elu/ori) (YES, magic scrolls)
  • Grind for crafting mats (YES)
  • Do a quest (real storytelling, not some generic ■■■■ quest) (OK, subjective)
  • Do a class change quest (actually involved quests) (YES)
  • Do a quest to get access to dungeon (really long, takes a few days for some quests) (NO, I think :stuck_out_tongue:)
  • Craft consumables (YES)
  • Fight a boss (YES)
  • Fight other people (YES)
  • Form a party (it took real time) (YES)
  • Form a guild (YES)
  • Do guild events (YES)
  • Help a new player (YES)
  • Help a new player more ( ? )
  • Discover new items (YES)
  • Discover new builds (YES)
  • Discover new places (YES, actually, I have more fun doing this in ToS, beautiful art!)
  • Do an instanced dungeon (YES, although I don’t remember instanced dungeons in RO)
  • Do WOE (Do GvG)
  • Prepare for WOE (Prepare for GvG)
  • Organize for WOE (Organize for GvG)

Not exactly the same, seriously, but I think you went too hard on it. In my opinion we can do most of these things. They need some tune, but I’m fine as I see the game improving constantly :slight_smile:

Edit: Probably you were talking about more diversity in points like “Craft consumables” right? If so, I agree!

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