Tree of Savior Forum

P2W Model Prevents People From Playing & Enjoying The Game

General Discussion
#287

yes i know this isn’t korea but people hate the things that happened in korea and since we got the same restriction people will hate it too.
and from what i understood based on other threads
western countries really hates p2w and restriction that is removed by a paywall.

well i need 1:1 trading so i can enjoy playing with my friends. i give them silver if they need extra cash for potions. i give them items if i have one that they want.

if you have friends that cant afford tokens to make a trade then the game isn’t fun for me. we are restricted from sharing cash and items by an $18 paywall (they said that token cost 180TP for 30 days or $18)

but if you have friends that can afford it then you are not affected by it.

EDIT:
and since the requirements for trading is both to have token then it is considered a $36 paywall. to be able to trade both must spend $18 each

#288

Well i dont like mutch they do either but… there still the hyped hard fanbase like in ro where (for the server i play and as far as i know the other are kinda same) its normality since xears thats it p2w with bad serverperformence and staff that kinda isent interessted in community… still there players who play… so it will be here too…

#289

It depends on how you’re planning to play the game.
Sure, you can progress in the story.
Sure you can drop all the stuff you want.
Sure you can pvp/gvg like any player.
Sure you can idle in town and make friends.

What you’re missing, is half of the social aspecs of a mmo, almost everything that is about sharing.
You will not be able to give away items to random players (and you want to, because you’re a saint).
You will not be able to trade boss drops, random loots, with other players during field hunt.
You will not be able to rotate items in your friend/guild group. (Like I drop a Dratt Bow, I give it to my archer friend. He drops a Temere recipe, he gives it to me, etc…)
You will not be able to give stuff to your friends starting the game (or to your alts).
Crafting classes will not be able to craft for others (they can sell, but can’t give).

So basically, you’ll play the mmo among players but you may not be able to play with them as much as you’d want.
Of course, you may not be into theses social aspects of a mmo… But a lot of players are (I am, and the ones that I’m enjoying to play with are too)… And restricting theses aspects with a paywall because insert whatever reason here is a cheap move, even more since it seems to be an unprecedent.

edit :
Oh yeah, and it gives a bad taste to the game. Like “you can’t play it like you’d expect (because let’s be honest, we’re expecting to be able to trade in a mmo), without giving money to imc”.
Personnally, I think that it could make me feel playing into a sort of “scam game”, because I don’t think that having to pay for trading is legitimate… Feels like being milked.

Btw, I don’t know the state of f2p-land, but I can imagine players comming there because RO nostalgia or being invited by friends, playing a little and then leaving to other games because dumb restrictions. I can’t see how this could do any good to the community ~~

2 Likes
#290

You cant label a free users as paying users it is contradictory, they are called free users for a reason. They do prevent the extreme P2W currently by making it unlikely to get. So whats the complaining?

#291

im not implying that every word i said is what IMC is doing.

they are listening but im just saying what other people said about complainers is to shut up. so if we just shut up it means that the feature is ok to implement and doesnt need to get removed

well im just saying p2w stuff since i really cant show specific item that i think is a pay2win. other people will be the judge if an item is p2w and which is why this thread is created.
and again, im not saying that everything is what IMC is doing right now. only giving samples if a dev/staff dont give a damn about the players which i think IMC is avoiding that situation by listening to us even if its a little bit

if i did say that they are really ignoring us then i might be stupid because they did show a solution from the 3 month founders access.

im labeling people who haven’t paid yet as free users in my perspective. i said that they become paying users because yes they paid a little bit because the game is good.

everyone starts as a free users then become paying users when they start buying.
game is new so long as the game hasn’t been released or if the founders pack was not here, we’re technically a free user until we buy something that makes us a paying user.

even in databases in mobile games. if a player just joined, they are marked as free users and once they spent something no matter how little it is, they become paying users and this comes from seeing the GM Tools from a certain game

EDIT:
another example are games that gives too much ads for free users and if they spend some cash then the ads will stop since they became a paying user.
yes i know that giving mobile game example is not a good idea but you get my point when it comes to free users becoming paying users unless you dont get it then i have no more things to say

they can convince free users to pay to become paying users if they can make contents and cosmetic items that is cool or cute

free users doesn’t technically mean that they are hardcore free users that wont give a dime to the game no matter how good or how bad it is.

#292

I didn’t read all the comments.

I don’t see this game as P2W at all. To be P2W in my view, is it has items in the cash shop that are only attainable with real money and give a massive advantage over F2P players. Things that just save you time, but you can still attain as F2P does not make the game P2W. The only thing that remotely looks P2W is the enchant scrolls, but you can still buy enchanted hats or whatever from other people. These things just save people time. Younger people with no jobs have more time to play, but less money to spend, and can still attain everything that gives an advantage as spending players.

I hope they just keep it at convenience items, cosmetics and no more items that can affect stats. If they start selling swords or equipment with huge stats in the cash shop that is way better than anything you can get as F2P, im out.

[Mega Polls!] Regarding some of the big hot button issues to be used as feedback for imc
#293

only confirmed cash item that gives stat based on what you said is the magic scroll people are talking about.

other than that i really hope that they change their mind about trading being disabled for free users cuz i really want to help my friends by giving free silvers and items(because i have more free time than them) because thats what i did most of the time in icbt2 gave 100k silver to my friends since they are just starting

#294

While i do not like the idea of things like dungeon cooldowns, click bait buzz word threads like these are even worse in my eye.

Let me tell you what p2w is.

See that crap? Thats called p2w.
Items which are more powerful than anything you could gain by means of playing the game, at your disposal via a cash-shop.
Getting 30% xp boost? Getting 1 or 2 more dungeon runs each day? + walking speed? Does any of that give the buyer an advantage which cannot be overcome as a f2p player? The answer is simple: No. It does not.

If you cba to play the game then get out.
Anyone who buys an xp booster misses out usually on 150% of the booster’s percentage in loot. Why? Because they leave areas behind quicker than those who do not employ boosters.
XP boosting is the prime example of a double edged feature which seems like a good choice at first sight, but has back-draws flastered all over it’s back.

#295

that is what i hated in RO when they announced cash shop.

why farm a 1% drop chance item if you can spend xx amount of cash to get it.
well good thing that they didnt sell +10 equipment or that is going way overboard.

i think i can give one example in RF Online Item Mall

Favor protection box and ignorance good box are like instant upgrades
its a gamble type of item where you get +3~+5 or +6 and when you get lucky and get +6, it turns the armor or weapon into +6 instantly no need to waste time upgrading from +1 - +5 (normal grade safe upgrade is +4 i think or +3 and intense or rare grade safe upgrade is +2 orange rarity is +1 i think)

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#296

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

#297

And here lies the huge and glaring flaw in your argument. You don’t get to re-define p2w to suit your argument. The CORE of p2w is the EXCLUSIVITY of paid benefits and NOT “who paid for them”. p2w benefits are 100% exclusive, not 90% not 50% not 10%. That means non-transferable at all.

I mean look at your arguments.

Implying these items are non-transferable to the point only those who paid can have them. But they’re accessible to ANYONE on the market. If anyone can get them (regardless of means, because that is not what is being questioned) then the argument is FALSE.

Working “harder and longer” and longer includes making money. For this argument I make the assumption that “farming harder and longer” falls under “working harder and longer”. Farming harder and longer can generate money to the point anyone can afford said benefits from the market.

These arguments hinge on people accepting this definition that you conveniently “made up” to suit your arguments.

1 Like
#298

As long as the user have the intention to pay, theyre classified as paying customers regardless of when there going to pay. Free users in itself dont have the intention at the very start, thats why theyre called like that. Lets say this particular rich player who dont have time, but will only spend on items that have “stats” on them hoping to be at par to free players. So how are you going to attract paying people like that? Youre going to shut the door for that type of people because he is yet to pay from cash shop? Making this game with the intention to attract “free” players with tears, blood and sweat only? Those arent free players but prospective paying customers youre hoping to attract. Customers are customers, attracting them comes on different form via cash shops and premiums or contents. Free players got its name for obvious reasons.

#299

P2W has no strict definition. It varies from person to person if something is perceived to be P2W. By the way Token is 100% exclusive from IMC cash shop and Magic scroll is essentially 100% exclusive from cash shop (so I heard). Try making these items in game without going through IMC’s cash shop, you’ll have to hack the server database to make it happen. You argument is just semantics what you consider to be exclusive or not.

They are accessible to anyone who has sufficient silver on the market IF the paying player decides to list them. You aren’t going to see that perfectly rolled triple enchanted headgear to be on the market because no one will list it (kept for their own use). There’s also the problem of gathering sufficient silver to purchase for these items in a consistent manner (Tokens / magic scroll), therefore the argument still stands that even if you can trade them through the market, it doesn’t automatically make it directly (/ easily) accessible for F2P players. In that case, you will see a power gap between F2P (at the very least the poorer subgroup of F2P) & paying players.

Again your argument is just semantics, trying to disguise the fact that the market do not GENERATE items, only players (paying) that list them do.

Market economics will correct prices as inflation rises. Prices aren’t static. To be able to consistently afford these cash shop items you need to consistently out farm the typical player base. Which means certain portion of the F2P players will never be able to afford it, again creating an arbitrary power gap.

:joy:

#300

Let me give an example to this using Blade and Soul. That game has a very “gold based” game overall mechanic.

For example if you go into a dungeon and an item drop you don’t get it instead an auction start and whoever player in the party bid the higher price for it gets it.

If you want to move from one place to another you got to pay gold.

If you want to craft you pay gold.

If you want to upgrade your equip to the last stage you have to pay like 1000% more money that you will eer have made in game by that point (at lvl 45 by questing you’ll have about 5 gold, you will need like 150)

The point is, “CURRENCY DROPS ONLY FOR SUBSCRIPTION PLAYERS”.

In this case the subscription becomes higly pay to win since it gives enormous advantages to pay to play customers and it really can get bad.

Just to make an example: if a pay to play “troll” player decides to piss of everyone else he will be able to bid for every item in a dungeon run ruiing the game for everyone and noone would be able to stop him because he will have the money to do so thanks to his subscription.

So i repeat, in this particular case that feature is extremely pay to win.

For ToS is different, but the stat boosters are P2W nevertheless.

I just wish those stats would be disabled during PvP and everything would be fine… the advantages player get from that stat boosters will be "an acceptable luxury as far as PvE is concerned BUT there would be absolutly no player gap in PvP

#301

I was pointing out that “a single player” is not the likely scenario, and that the power gap will be between the paying vs the non paying. In an averaged out circumstance, you’re going to have F2P and P2W on both sides so it averages out (assuming guilds don’t recruit only P2Ws, once P2W matures though… its a different story.)

Regardless the main argument wasn’t on GvG, it’s that your argument that these stats are insignificant is internally inconsistent.

These are mutually exclusive statements. If it is insignificant, it should have no appeal. If it has appeal, it must be significant in someway.

The only possible scenario for your claim to even make remote sense would mean that:

  1. Deceit: The appeal of the stat is fake - It’s a scam where you see it advertised but has no actual in game function. We know that this cannot possibly be true. Something sold for +10 bonus HP will give +10 bonus HP in game.

  2. Buyer stupidity: The stats actually have no significance but somehow they think it has appeal. But that is claiming that players will buy +10 charisma (not an in game stat) just because it has “appeal”.

Neither scenario is plausible.

The problem with your argument is simply one of logic. You’re claiming that something is insignificant yet has appeal to the buyer.

e.g.

  1. Buying a 2L car, versus the 2.01L car. Insignificant, no appeal.
  2. Buying a 2L Car, vs a 4L car. Significant difference, appeal is in the larger engine volume.

You can’t be Buying 2L car, vs a 2.01L car, call it insignificant difference, yet claim that it has more appeal than the 2L car (ignoring external factors like price)

#302

Has anyone here mentioned the insta-revive item available from the Cash shop? It revives your avatar on the spot with full health. Kinda renders resurrection spell useless. It can be used in GvG, as of right now, so that means that the team with the most Soul Stones wins.

1 Like
#303

Looks like it’s time fo make a thread about that fnagz22. :smile:

#304

I’m surprised the white knights haven’t flocked here in a search and destroy mission. I tried making the suggestion to make Tokens purchasable in game from NPC’s so other players couldn’t get rich(ingame) from selling them and I was flagged, because “IMC makes less money” that way.

#305

They are here. There’s a perfectly good summary of points that they have made

and busted.

#306

P2W matures? Only hats give stats and there’s a limit on what it gives, oh boy, more people going into more hypothetical situations.

#2 is my point, people don’t understand how impactful these stats are in-game. At a visual point of view it appeals to players but is it game-breaking? People already ran the numbers, find them.

Your last statement, what? That’s literally what’s going on here.

2.01L car are the P2W hats.
“Oh boy, the car seller is telling me this 0.5% increase is going to be amazingly better! Unfortunately it costs more but w0w an extra .01L than the 2L, must be better right?”
Proceeds to buy the 2.01L car, will you notice a difference from the 2L, no. It’s literally 0.5% increase.

Like literally you guys are examples of this, the movement speed buff that everyone is shitting their pants over, you’ll barely notice the difference and it doesn’t even apply in Arenas.

And to top it off, the magic scrolls can be obtained in-game. You people are never satisfied.