Tree of Savior Forum

Wabblet's High Level EXP Rate Feedback!

Ahah ! No you are not ! It was just for trying to say that not all people have time to play a lot like we do =p

And as i say the exp rate for me is ok , because i’m able to play a lot , it’s just about the way that you are “forced” to be in groupe , i’m pretty much a solo player (in a mmo LeL ? Yes 8D ) , i don’t mind playing alone and don’t count on other , and I like getting “rewards” and being “proud” of what i did all by myself.
But it’s just a personal problem , so it’s not that important =p

So as i say , the grinding part for me is not a real problem.
But i’m not a selfish person and try to be open-minded, and i think about the part of community who can’t realy play as much as us , and how frustrated it will be for them to being stuck in this situation.

Edit : Yhea i edit a lot ! I try to restranlate my feeling in english precisely but it’s not easy =p

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Lol @ you. Do you really think this game isn’t casual? Look up rune factory 4 and see who’s it target audience, obviously, casul players. I spent 150 hours in that game, and I admit, I’m playing a casual game, git gud.

So what you’re saying the non casul playaz arez noliferz?! Omigawd!! I didn’t know this combat system in the game is ■■■■■■■ hard. Heck, the boss moved frequently, and know what they’re doing. -sarcasm-

I would like to use the opportunity to compare this game to Phantasy Star Online(PSO) by SEGA, just to show you why I think that the grinding in ToS wasn’t necessarily that bad but it still depends on how the game is set up later on and how far the lvl cap is supposed to go. And I also want to show what can and should be improved in ToS to improve the grind.
The PSO series is (similar to ToS) an action MMO series where the lvlcap goes to lvl200. The level cap is similar to how far ToS will let us go upon release too.
In PSO you easily reach lvl10-20 at day 1 within let’s say 5-6 hours.
Your experience gain drops quite fast but you still gain about 5 levels a day at lvl40+ and at lvl60+ you still gain 4 levels a day without big effort.

There are some main differences between the grind in PSO and the grind in ToS, though and I feel that
these are the main reasons for concern about the grind, which I have too:

  1. The loot is grand in PSO. You can find truly rare and epic gear in every level-area of the game, you can drop skills for your character classes and all sorts of other useful items. This is a huge incentive for people to feel that they are going out to hunt items while lvling rather than feeling that they are going out to just mindlessly grind.
    In ToS the loot is sparce, mostly you drop junk-items to sell or gem-enhance with and even if something drops it’s usually not good drops at all. Your character does not change it’s looks from armor, which makes armor drops feel underwhelming. On top of that there are 3-4 armor types and ~6 weapon types you can drop of which you always need to find the ones you can use. But worst of all, there are not many rare drops, especially in earlier lvls. You can find normal, blue, then purple and finally red equip from what I saw so far. But there are only few purple and red items and they hardly ever drop.
    In PSO on the other hand there are tons of good/rare items and you have quite good chances of dropping one or even several when you grind at a spot for a day.

  2. The time needed to grind in PSO is more than in ToS to reach a level, but the amount of effort you have to go through is less. This makes the grind in ToS feel heavier to me, despite being easier than PSO to lvlup.
    -> This is firstly because PSO does it smart and splits the exp between mobs, bosses, mini-events and (repeatable) quests which you can all do while grinding. In ToS I feel no exp gain from defeating a boss and bosses also never randomly appear during my grind and even if I find a repeatable quest it’s not related to my grind but to some story-part that I need to do instead of the grind. Therefore my grind feels less worthwhile whereas quests feel better because the exp cards give good exp, whereas hunting a mass of mobs feels less so.
    -> And secondly it is because the amount of mobs I need to kill for the same amount of exp in ToS compared to PSO is insane. For comparison, one mob in ToS gives me 100 exp when I need 200.000 to lvlup. I need to kill 2.000 mobs for a lvlup.
    One mob in PSO only gives me 40 exp but I also only need 25k to lvlup at lvl60. Only 625 mobs needed for a lvlup. Still a lot of mobs but far less. This is also the reason why grinding solo is highly inefficient because with 5 people you can kill 5 times as many mobs without having to split much of the exp.

To see the grinding improved, I personally would like to see far more and better drops from the mobs, not the quests. And either increase the exp from mobs a tad and/or give out repeatable quests to do for the mobs which give you exp cards. Also field boss-monsters, should give far far better exp considering the time they take to kill since they give like 0 exp right now, they should also drop useful items like equip, not merely cosmetics and they need to spawn much more frequently at areas with grinding spots so that during your grind you at least got some faint hopes that even if you won’t be lucky to find a blue mob, at least the field boss might soon appear again for extra exp.

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There’s nothing effortless about questing. Especially actually good quests

In single player RPGs, following a quest and gaining power through it can either be effortless or not depending on the needs of the outlined story and how the devs interpret that story through gameplay.

If a quest is actually good, you’d be willing to do it without any form of recompense for the effort. You’d follow that quest, simply because you found it interesting, and would want resolve for that quest’s various actors (including that of your own character). That’s what a good quest is.

A majority of mmo quests and quite a lot here just want you to kill a bunch of things. You were doing that already, so why not take a quest to give a little bump when you’re done?

Obviously, the OP’s context refers specifically to modern MMO questing. Quests in ToS already give out items and open up new areas, rather than directly giving out XP, which is exactly how most single player RPGs go about it.

One reason why some us are against the form of questing you suggest is because we see it as exactly as what it is: story-writing that comes off as artificial mixed with lazy game design. We’ve seen it in too many MMO’s post-WoW not to be pushed to the point of fury.

“A little bump” of XP is actually vague, and IMC would have to figure out what you mean by that.

Do you even realize what you’re asking for? How many quest givers would you need to implement in order to satisfy the huge amounts of XP needed to sustain a character through questing alone? This is another problem in many post-WoW MMOs: you have thousands of NPCs, with few (if any) having any form of depth to their characters.

If a player wants to hunt bear butts, it should be by his own volition. Or instead of bear butts, he’s free to hunt lizard tails or peacock feathers, which would be found in very different areas. Quest givers have a nasty habit of dictating where it is that a player should operate. Consequently this takes away the sense of free-roaming exploration that many of us fell in love with in RO.

I personally feel that quests should be reserved for the most important storylines - things that define your character such as a job change, or things that change the landscape permanently. They shouldn’t be there for XP bumps. That’s what grinding is for.

100 is not a high level in a game with planned content as high as 600. 100 is when the game starts to open up and give you more options both class and world wise.

For most modern MMOs, max level is “when the game starts to open up and give you more options both class and world wise.”

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i agree to OP.
i explored the half the maps including 190+maps and the amount of mobs are disgusting.
sometimes you see 2-3 mobs per screen and you are supposed to share them with hundreds of others? good luck with that! toxic community insured. also the areas after the mines only had 3 channels and where “full”. why? beause there is only one grind spot. i guess the system is thinking oh only 4partys here and didnt bother making a new channel but thats a big big problem with only one screen with mobs.
i think they should put a ■■■■ ton of mobs everywhere so people dont get frustrated with KSing each other and searching for hours where to go. like the west of the bridge before the mine. i grinded there a really long time because there where like 13? channels and it was kinda fun to go berzerk there. you could even turn down the exp rate and less people would complain.
also the comparison to PSO is a good one. they should copy some ideas. i put 170h into it to get to max and it was fun and felt like 30h.

TL;DR: WAY too few mobs and/or channels, exp rate is ok.

edit: talking of pso2

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I can understand about the loot as an incentive to grinding, but that still doesn’t really solve the issue of certain bracket not having an optimal spot. Having good loot doesn’t give you to exp to get from level 90-105. (That was the hardest levels to get past, no good spot to grind and the spot we were in gave terrible exp)

Increasing the exp rate of mobs is worst than increasing the density of every map to allow 5 man parties to grind at a location of their choice. You are increasing the overall exp thus making leveling easier without trying hard. Instead, they should increase the density of every map to have at least 1 optimal location for a 5 man grind party. Its technically the same but at least it doesn’t “Inflate” the overall exp gain rate.

On to the topic of field bosses. I agree on the field bosses giving more exp. That part is true, but as i read your comment about field bosses, i think you don’t really understand how the field bosses work? There are two types of Field bosses, one that is generated by parties (Press F6 and you can summon a field boss) they give cosmetics and you got the second type, dungeon generated. The ones in the dungeon gives Equipment, (Ranged from set pieces, blue, purple and red) recipes and ores (Diamonds, bronze, gold, etc). The field bosses should not give exp because they can be generated. The dungeon bosses have a spawn timer and from my experience are much harder to kill. They spawn adds, have phases and definitely do more damage. Only the dungeon generated should have the exp gain equivalent to a blue mob or even more than a blue mob. Some bosses have a 2 hour and 30 minute spawn timer :wink:

But i feel you and i agree to some of what i listed… =P

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Check this out:



There is no way this game doesnt have grinding in mind.

To rework the grind , at least those 3 classes need to be completly reworked or even deleted.

Double Pay Earn is a doppel rank 6 class skill
Insatall basecamp is a squire rank 6 class skill
Call Of Deities is a oracle rank 6 class skill

rank 6 is around level 185 iirc, with this level Im sure grinding is a must.

for me as a normal player I think around level 30 - 45 is abit to hard to level since at this level it has a few place to grind exp
tenet garden which alway full with ppl
chapel b1 also full with ppl
chapel f1 not quite good but less ppl since monster hit abit hard
chapel f2 not good
and veja ravine which is level 46 map most party need level 42+
after this range is fine.

im sure most of ppl that play iCBT stuck at this range or quit.

so I suggest to make some change around this range increase a quest or add more grind spot or reduce a wall a bit just 10-15% eace level is fine

Yeah, definitely. The ideas I gave were in addition to your original feedback, not in place of them.

I feel that good loot is important but the reasons you listed were of course the main problem for the testers since they all started playing at the same times and ended up at the same places.
IMC probably gave us this few channels on purpose to test out the capacity of their game further. I think it’s safe to say that they will already tackle that issue.

If they open up more spots to level, add more loot and make field bosses more rewarding I feel the grinding would get tenfolds more fun than it was in the iCBT.

Also thanks for the info about dungeon bosses. I did not even know those existed. If those give the good exp that would be perfect.

But 1 question: Do those dungeon bosses spawn at fixed locations or anywhere within a floor?

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I guess everyone has their opinion. All I want is someone to play the game with even if the grind might be gruesome. I do enjoy the grind from time to time, but when I’m starting to feel like I’m torturing myself… that’s when you take a break. Sit… chat with your friends in town. Explore the whole map of tree of savior. This game isn’t like dragon nest where you have to grind your ass off all the time. This game encourages us to explore and not limit ourselves to just getting to the level cap and be the strongest(although that may be the point of the game in some cases.) I stopped at around lvl 52-53. Got bored of the grind and decided to explore the far northern parts of the world. I enjoyed it. Did some quests that were interesting.

Was I too much? This is how I felt about the game and how I enjoy it. The grind is fine. Just don’t punish yourself with it.

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i got to 65 and i agree with the exp rates being fine glad i see someone on higher level agreeing with me :slight_smile:

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VITADRINK LOVE YOU… thanks for your words about the grind thanks for supporting thanks For Existing!!!

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@Wenina I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say. Please write in a way that human beings can understand.

Hello. I was really happy, when I read the XP rates were lowered, so we will get them 2x-4x quicker. I hate the EXP rates, but I like the suggestions (as I said in Divergent's XP Feedback)

OP’s suggestions were what a lot of people who are against the early grinding want and tried to explain why.

If there are more places to grind, more ways to grind, less KS’ing, more things to do beside grinding then grinding is fine. Some suggested to ease the process to rank 3 so people can have more skills and be able to grind more effective. But there is a lot of works for the developers to implement things like new maps (not only they will have to create new maps, they will have to change the whole world-map layout), also things like adding more monsters on some maps may break the nature / personality / lore design of the maps too, while we know the later levels already have these contents (more leveling places at each level range as well as things to do, etc), so to make it easier for the developers, we think there is a clear option of getting rid or at least ease the early grind. It won’t affect that much to the enjoyment of the people who want to grind since there are plenty more levels for that but it will help the game gains a bigger population of players who ain’t so fond of hardcore grinding. With more people playing, the game will also be more fun (it’s an MMO after all), the developers will have more budget to maintain and further develop the game, more contents will be offered to everyone, more people will be happy. This isn’t a situation when one side has to win when the other loses and has to leave.

Those are my thoughts which I have tried to put out in the past few days (or at least the first few days). Now I know many won’t read my post nor they will only read some lines and start arguing / insulting me despite most of what I want may as well be the same as them.

For all of this debating / arguing, I personally respect @FatePGN the most since after explained his thoughts and got a response from the staffs, he simply made some polls to objectively help showing the players’ thoughts on this. This will indeed help the developers to some extend instead of giving them a mess of an argument. Never once he started mocking / insulting directly or indirectly anyone who disagree with him. For this the developers may want to read more into his thoughts and suggestions than those of some others and I believe they should. Of course I am unable to avoid being biased since I am in agreement with him after all, still my points stand.

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On a game with 80 classes, spending thousands of hours getting to max level, I will never level an alternative character to max level after that. This wastes the potential of the game, and it seems like people are only thinking of grinding to max, not what comes after max. I’d like a PvP character, and MvP character, a PvE character and experimenting. The EXP is not ok.

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You know what? you are the first guy that support current exp rate with reasonable and polite , I am appreciate that. :grin:

I dont want to end on the flamers side, for what i know i would done a nolifer with the beta if i could or if my full party actually recieved the key. But things as are now make the game complex to a lot of ppl. Making this big difference and making everyone level in the same place and getting the same drops not just bore people with the game, but destroys it’s market. I can’t even believe the differences in market price from KR to International. With just 5k players we got ppl actually selling items cheaper than the sell to a NPC. 500 silver a hat? Really? If ppl get that much hours on the same map there will be, eventually, tons of the same “rare drop” item, dropping the price like hell and destroying any chance of a good market and the move of silver out of the NPCs. The exp rates are to blame for that and sure, you can use some of the ideas you put there, like other maps with grind spots (and with it other monsters and drops), but pushing ppl to go nolifer to sctually get to enjoy the game isn’t the solutions to the actual exp problem.

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Here’s some food for thought: What I don’t understand is why so many people assume that end game content is at level 500. What if the end game content is meant for level 250-300 and extreme grinders would have the potential to reach 500 ? You also have to think that by increasing the overall rates now you would have people level 200 in under 2 weeks, no matter if they did it by playing excessively. It took me roughly 4 hours to get to level 30 with no knowledge of the game and I would not find it attractive if in the same time I would have made it to level 50 with almost no effort.

Now consider Diablo 3 (which is not a grindy game, I am aware): it was arguably the easiest game to reach max level and alot of people dropped the game because of it. From what I remember it took me less then month to max out. What ended up happening is they had to add a lot of content to compensate for it being so short. They added the paragon system which you can level up to 9999. Now if you take that and apply the same mentality and tell people from the start “Hey guys, you can make it all the way up to 9999”, people would go insane and say it takes way to much time/effort and isn’t achievable for the casual gamer, unless they play for years. Oh and by the way, the highest current paragon level is 2085, after almost 2 years.

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