Tree of Savior Forum

Tokens -> Immediate Attributes? You mean Pay2Win?

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#41

Seems there are many people that picked up the P2W phrase as some kind of meme on the internet without understanding what it actually means or the implication of the phrase and have been throwing it around with reckless abandon without any idea of what it actually means.

Tokens are a premium item, but unlike other games IMC allows you to legally buy them for silver in game from the marketplace from other players.

Tokens are also relatively cheap and easy to buy if you decide to save and farm the silver for them. On my first character after the server launched, I had bought a token from the market within 2 days by simply not spending/wasting my silver on items/attributes/gear until I had one.

Attributes being instant-buy is convenient and an actual reason to have a token besides trade limit now, since the EXP boost is negligible in most scenarios (cards > grinding when available 100% of the time), players are getting direct player-to-player trade in this upcoming patch, and extra stam recovery is cool, but negligible as well.

P2W is something like Mabinogi’s reforge system, while arguably also not pay to win, because they were rarely accessible in game through events and illegal rmt trading, they made a new player as strong as a player who played for years, if you got a good roll.

That is a stupid system, ToS doesn’t have anything close to that. Even the enchant scrolls which may give good stats don’t give broken amounts of any of them. A full HP roll or AoE attack ratio doesn’t really make a whole lot of difference unless your character is already optimized to use those stats.

ToS isn’t pay-2-win in any regard.

#42

Whoa there. Chill.

I’m happy with the tokens and I disagree with OP but let’s be civil.

3 Likes
#43

I’m not judging people that want to waste their time on MMO’s…xD

#44

There is a significant difference between saying, “Because y is possible, x is also possible,” and saying, “anyone who does y will do x.” I was saying the prior.

Because this is a fantasy game where the purpose is not to emulate reality but to create a fantasy for the player. Video games are not reality, and should not strive to emulate it, particularly when it instantly creates a rift between higher- and lower-class players before you’ve even played the game at all. It’s unbalanced/unfair. If you believe that the only form of “true” support for a game is financial support, our disagreement goes far beyond the context of this specific argument.

You seem to be misunderstanding the qualms folks have with P2W. And good for you if you’re unemployed and still not having financial issues–not everyone is in the same boat. To some people, $10 is a lot of money, and that fact shouldn’t mean the difference between having a significant advantage in the game, or not. If you really don’t see a problem with payers having a huge advantage in many ways over free-players, I can only assume you are not a very considerate/empathetic individual, since you so blithely dismiss other people’s concerns in lieu of “Well I don’t have an issue so no one should.” And that goes for anyone whose argument has been, “Well I’m a free-player and I don’t have an issue, so no one should.”

#45

i wish this game went P2P xDDD i played 3 mmo’s yesterday Tibia, Mabinogi and Dragon Nest, ALL of them are FP2, but Tibia is P2E~P2W (Pay To Enjoy) and each of them have Goldsellers, and full of botters :’(

#46

Whiny lil ** everywhere.
Apparently having no idea of what p2w is.

#47

"[quote=“olivier_alard_voisin, post:34, topic:216652”]
The fact is, the difference will be important in PvP, and PvP in ToS is end game, not early.
[/quote]

I’m sorry, but you don’t get to dictate what players’ purposes in the game are, so you therefore don’t get to dictate what “end game” is for everyone. I am personally not into PvP; I play this game to quest, collect gear, party with friends, and sport the finest of headgears. I play for the PvE, not the PvP, so my endgame is not PvP.

I suppose this is a good place to bring this up: what is “winning” in ToS? When one says “P2W”, what does the “winning” entail, exactly, particularly in the PvE sense?

Silver.

Silver is the lifeblood of basically everything in ToS. Sure, enchantment scrolls are P2W as shi-- due to the sheer stat-advantage it can afford you if you get a lucky roll, but in a more broad sense, silver is what runs ToS. Silver allows you to: buy the best gear, level your attributes, upgrade/overupgrade equipment, repair your stuff, teleport you, obtain necessary items to use your class (priest, for example), buy a companion, buff the companion.

How to obtain silver? Well, you can hunt mobs for ambient silver drops when you kill them, but the majority of silver is obtained through efficient market place usage with decent items, and this is one of my biggest issues with the tokens. A token user currently gets 4 extra slots in the market (soon to be 9) and makes roughly 20% more per sale than a non-token user. Mix this with the ability to enter dungeons more often if you use a token, which gives you more chances at better gear, and you’re creating a significant rift between token users and non-token users.

The higher tax alone makes it obviously unfair, but ability to put 5 items at a time (soon to be 10!) as opposed to 1 is the real killer for non-token users, because it means they have to make sure they put items in the market that will sell quickly if they want to profit at a reasonable rate, then check the market place far more often to see whether it sold so they can put up the next item in the market–it’s dumb, it’s unnecessary, and it severely gimps non-token users from making silver even if they were lucky enough to find rare drops.

For this thread in particular, the attribute-learning unfairness already exists even with the tokens as they are now, but the ability to learn the attributes immediately exacerbates the problem and brings it to light more strongly.

#48

I don’t even understand how could this game be a pay2win when tokens can be bought by any players through silver. For f@k sake the token last for 30 days and you can buy one through farming even in a single day. Even if the price will spike later, players can still afford it by working harder or farming smartly than casual players. If I don’t need to pay for this game access I wouldn’t need to spend money and get good inside the game.

I don’t even call a game where donator can buy donation gears through their money, a pay 2 win game, so long that I can buy the gears from them too by simply farming more than a casual players do because in the end I can still compete fairly with them. If you want to be competitive in game, don’t play too casually and simply call a game pay 2 win when there’s a way to get every necessary stuffs you need by playing well.

1 Like
#49

cry a river loser…

#50

Right. I can’t tell you how many people i have seen on these forums calling xp boosters pay to win… :unamused:

1 Like
#51

I don’t think it’s p2w.
-damage attributes are instant anyway
-most relevant timed attributes don’t have alot of levels, so it won’t take that much longer to level them anyway. Just level a timed attribute everytime you go to town or when taking a break and you’ll be fine

If Tokens removed the silver cost of attributes, then i’d understand why people would complain and i would not like it aswell.
However, since tokens do not affect silver cost and the only difference is time and since even then most attributes can be learned instantly i don’t really see any problem with it.

#52

Can you explain how removing the silver cost is different from giving token-users easier access to silver? Is not that equivalent? If being a token-user/seller gives you quicker, easier access to silver, it is basically like removing the silver cost from attributes, which is why this change exacerbates the already-present issue.

Being a token user/seller already directly translates to having the ability to afford attributes, better gear, over-upgrading, etc. That’s the problem I see.

#53

Or you can buy a few tokens, use one, sell the others on the market and level your attributes instantly with the money you made. F2P players can’t do that. That is the definition of P2W.

#54

No it’s not pay 2 win, it’s convenient, not p2w. Do you even know what a real pay to win game looks like?

1 Like
#55

In a game where just about everything is based on time constraints, doing things more quickly/conveniently is winning. Just because your interpretation of “winning” differs doesn’t mean suddenly all arguments about such extreme convenience rifts are invalid. Can you make silver other ways? Yes. But can you literally just purchase silver with irl money? Yes. That’s P2W in a game that is so heavily reliant on in-game currency, which affords you so many improvements.

#56

Consider the following:

  1. You play for free. Be thankful theyre trying to balance the game. Most money-grabbing MMOs dont.
  2. The only difference with players who have token and who dont is the time to max attributes.
  3. Tokens are tradeable and accessible even to free users. It is NOT impossible to have the same benefits paying users have. I repeat, NOT IMPOSSIBLE. You just need to work harder than them.
  4. How do you even expect the hard-working staff and devs of IMC to gain from this game without enticing paying customers? Its not like they have money-growing trees on their backyards.

Life isn’t fair. Just DEAL WITH IT!

2 Likes
#57

Moot point.

Wat. [quote=“jerickoh, post:56, topic:216652”]
Tokens are tradeable and accessible even to free users. It is NOT impossible to have the same benefits paying users have. I repeat, NOT IMPOSSIBLE. You just need to work harder than them.
[/quote]

I’ve already commented on this about three times in this thread alone. [quote=“jerickoh, post:56, topic:216652”]
How do you even expect the hard-working staff and devs of IMC to gain from this game without enticing paying customers? Its not like they have money-growing trees on their backyards.
[/quote]

Also already touched on this.

#58

What part did you not understand?

#59

Mostly the part where he neglects entire aspects of the token benefits. I dunno, call me crazy. Not to mention the difference between people who need to work for the tokens and those who can just use irl cash for 'em. But nah, ignoring entire facets of an argument is definitely a reasonable way to project an opinion on something. Kappa.

#60

Well, thats f2p mmo to you, it might sound harsh, but its the buyers who gets the pizza, f2p’s almost always get the crusts.