Tree of Savior Forum

The Highlander 2H Critical Attack attribute is a noob trap

Class and Rank Swordsman
#1

There’s a lot of theory going around making people want to pick Highlander c1 solely for the 50% bonus to Critical Attack stat (not the actual Critical Damage which amplifies from 1.5x phys damage, I will refer to it as such). I’ve seen people in game ask me why I opted out of getting it. Pardon my bad English.

I’m not going to put out hard numbers here, just my thoughts in bullet form.
Here are a few reasons and I’m interested in hearing thoughts on it.

  1. Critical Attack is flat and is an amount added after the crit strike. Your physical attack is doing all the work.

  2. The source of Critical damage is STR, gear, Level bonus, physical damage buffs and skills+attributes towards damage, all multiplied by 1.5. Critical Attack comes from some gear, STR, and a small amount of buffs which aren’t popular.

  3. STR builds will need to invest in survivability late game anyways and with crit resist and the crit formula you may never crit until you’ve gotten end game gear. (also we’re looking specifically at the bonus to crit damage’s contribution)

  4. Even if you have a lot of Critical Attack, your effective dps contribution from Critical Attack per strike is lowered by your Crit chance.

  5. You’re lacking a gem when using 2H weapons that could be used on Critical Rate.

  6. Your skill damage massively outscales it’s contribution while leveling up. example right now I have a 124 Critical Attack stat this includes hair but my Critical Damage reaches 6000. So 6000 + 124 = 6124 without highlander passive compared to 6000 + 124*1.5 = 6186 with the passive and I’m only level 64.

Bonus 7: if you went full STR, the maximum amount of damage Highlander will grant you assuming not Critical Attack stat enhancing gear would be 333. At level 280 333 flat damage 30% percent of the time is very useless.

Bonus 8. According to sources in other popular threads to get a good amount of Critical Chance on a STR build to take full advantage of the passive you’ll need leather. But that means you’ll need a lot more con for that same effective HP lost from not going plate later on. The Critical Attack contribution from STR isn’t realistic and so you’d have to rely on gear. But why focus on gear just for crit damage?

Can we also agree that Critical Attack is the worst stat to focus on that contributes to overall damage for a swordsman in the game especially for the sake of consistency?

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[Guide] Top DPS 2hander Doppel Swordsman Build
[Guide] Top DPS 2hander Doppel Swordsman Build
[Guide] Swordsman's Battle Manual (All classes) - By Cathexis
Fencer build discussion
#2

First of all I love your name, nerdpiggleton! Thanks for doing the testing, I was about to reroll my Swordsman -> Swordsman 2 -> Barb into Swordsman -> Highlander -> Barb solely for 2 H Crit Att Attribute but guess I won’t now!
By this Gungho Level 10 is way way better than 2 H Crit then? My stat build is purely DEX.

#3

If you’re going purely DEX, yes GungHo 10 would be more practical, although keep in mind that the main benefit of GungHo levels is the duration. C2 and C3 Swordsman benefit mostly from restrain which works really well with multi hit attacks. Although the stun is pretty short duration wise but for dedicated attacks like cyclone you’ll proc it more than once.

#4

I’m a high dex build lv158 highlander/doppel/peltast. And the 2-h mastery is insane. I got like 200+ bonus crit attack. Because the 2h sword high physical damage+skills and deeds of valor. Im not only super tanky because of dex evasion. But also gems can all be crit attack as well, you lose huge amounts of accuracy, which you have plenty off. So this is no problem. Noob trap all you want. This build worked out way better then I expected. To bad there arnt damage meters to compare yourself with other classes. But when this class starts to spam mana pots and skills, Its probably one of the highest dps classes ingame. My crits are almost x3 normal damage.

#6

You still probably don’t realize how much your critical attack stat is actually contributing.

If your skill is showing 10k damage on crit and you have 200 crit attack that means that the Highlander mastery only contritibutes to 70 damage.

You don’t always crit so overall your (Crit attack * your crit chance (because again you won’t always crit)) Is how much damage you gain from each crit attack on average. The mastery is a toggle you can take look at its effect yourself.

#7

Please realize that the difficulty ramps up after 200 not 158… the real deal starts at 200.

1 Like
#8

Eh, I’m wearing plate armor(15% dmg reduced+high defence), and already have much more HP(lv.15 plate mastery) then the archer you showed thats 60 lvls above me. Right now im serving as off tank+aoe damage dealer in dungeons. You could say im physical damage immune. Thats how tanky this build without shield is. You can even cross guard and get 600+ block rating.

Yes, evasion is probably going to fall off, more magic damage monsters. But with the amount of burst dmg doppel can deal. Everything dies before it can even react. Best defence is a good offence. I still dont feel the need for str or con at almost 160. Thats how much physical damage 2-handed swords give. I havnt even bothered with upgrading them.

The 200 crit attack+ is bonus from 2h mastery. I have almost 600 crit attack total. And it does more then you show in your calculations.

SwordC3-BarbC2-DoppelC2 viable for Pvp/Gvg(Guild tower breaker)?
#9

Highlander passive is adding on average (200 * your crit chance) on average. And crit attack is applied at the end of your critical strike so it’s a flat damage.

So your damage is coming from in a simplified version ((Phys attack * Deeds of Valor) + Skill Damage)*1.5 (Crit Strike)+ Crit Attack * Highlander passive.
In the end you only added 200 damage with the passive on a critical strike. Critical attack is a flat amount of damage added on top of critical strike. It’s like blessing or elemental damage in a sense but it doesn’t apply when you don’t crit.

I put up the video only to show that 150-180 is nothing. My cryomancer can tank 150-180. Swordsmen have the biggest trouble in Ktos PVE because they get easily overwhelmed. Trust me your not going to be tanking as a 2h swordie when it actually matters. You’re never going to be top dps because other classes like archer scale much better. I don’t want to sound like a broken record but 150-180 is nothing in terms of what you’ll see towards the later portions of the game. All I’m saying is prepare apart from that it’s up to you…

3 Likes
#10

Oh, im not suprised the game will be different at lv200+. And also not suprised that the game isnt balanced with this many classes. Alot of things can and will change in the future. I already noticed alot of scaling issues, that will be even more problematic at lv400+

#11

Can someone reconfirm that HL passive actually affects crit. atk ONLY, and not actual crit dmg modifier additively (x1.5->x2.0)?

#12

anyone can confirm you this?

#13

Yes i can confirm the damage is added to your final crit damage, example if your crit attack is 200 and a normal hit would hit for 100 but it crits, you multiply 100 x1.5 and then add your current crit damage, like this:

100 x 1.5 + 200 = 350

However i dont agree with nerdpiggleton when he says that its not worth it. Even if its only added to your final damage and its “not that much”, thats what most of the skills, buffs and bonuses in this game can offer.

For example look at concentrate, you add 20 damage to each hit, and something around ~120 if full attribute upgaded, look at corsairs dagger mastery +2.5 % damage if attacking from behind with a dagger, etc, etc…

What i mean is these bonuses are not huge, but in the end, all of the bonuses you can get are not game changing either, so you can pick whatever you like.

I went Sword c1> Peltasta c1> Highlander c3 > Doppel c2 and i dont regret it at all. Im running with 1500+ crit attack and yes i love the crit mastery, so based on your title i would be a noob who “fell” for the crit attack trap, but guess what? i love it!! .

I may not have the barbarian stuns but i can help my team and myself kill stuff faster while they also take less magic damage, and i can offtank anything that is thrown at me.

When you pair maxed Skull Swing with a lvl 10 Cyclone with high attribute damage, plus a high dex build with lots of evasion, accuracy and very high crit rate, you demolish everything around you while barely being touched.

Plus if you use peltasta “Guardian” with the attribute (+18% evasion while guardian is up) you sacrifice a little damage for crazy skyrocket evasion, so you can stand still while dishing out your damage with your 2H, or switch to 1H+Shield and manual block if you’re scared, and if you do get hit, deeds of valor will compensate the loss instantly.

Magic users will always wreck you, and in high level they can be brutal but your “Crown” helps a little, especially if it has the attribute maxed, plus you can do as me and carry a second 2hander with high MDEF for facing those pesky casters , but hey, no build is perfect anyways. Life past Lvl200 is not as easy as most think anyways.

My suggestion is, play wathever you like, most builds out there are viable.

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#14

I said it’s not worth to go the Highlander path just for the sake of the 2h mastery, Highlander itself is a good class I have nothing against the class itself.

The reason being 2h swords has toughest times keeping up with crit rate so naturally their crit attack bonus from the mastery is going to be lower. Higher DEX investment which by consequence means a lower STR investment which is the majority of the crit attack.

Essentially it just means all three 2nd rank swordsmen are on par with each other if you’re planning on going 1 rank into them, whereas people thought highlander was always the best choice.

1 Like
#15

Attributes just cost you money and time anyway, why is this even that big an issue?

1 Like
#16

Hey i am son rank 6 now and so far the same build as you and i am wonderin gif i should go Doppel 2 or not.
How is the endgame content for you and how is tanking? Can you even tank at endgame?

I was thinking of going Doppel-Shinobi or Fencer instead of Doppel, what do you think about that?

Also if we get the KTOS patch and cleave adds 50% slash damage, do you think thats a reasen to reroll?

Hoping you can help and answer my questions because you took already the path i wanted to choose and can give me some advice maybe :slight_smile:

1 Like
#17

WARNING: Wall of text incoming…

Hey Carnimani, first of all, its nice so find someone going for the same path as me. These days everybody thinks highlander sucks, so its all full of barbarians all over the place.

Now answering your questions,
If you try to face tank dungeon mobs higher than your level, you WILL get raped. Most tanking for non Rodeleros or Peltc3 swordies in this game consist mostly on SwashBuckling plus avoiding enemies attacks while your team does their thing, for no reason you should root in place blocking with Peltasta C or Cross Guard, or you will kiss the floor.

Plus remember that block only works for melee attacks, most mobs have some sort of magic attack that cant be blocked unless you are a Rodelero running Slithering (you can even walk out of AOEs with it).

Even if you have lots of evasion like i do, you never know when THAT two or three meele hits will land and kill you.

If you wish to tank like a boss, go Pelt3 and or Rodelero c3 (huge damage buffs incoming for them).

Shinobi class is bugged right now, i suggest you to go to their subforum category and read whats going on over there. We Highlanders have a few bugged skills too but not as much as them (Vertical Slash for example).

Doppel C2 has some interesting stuff, Cyclone lvl 10 should be the main reason to go Doppel c2. Zucken hits like a truck, but costs a lot of SP, Redel not as hard but has a very cool animation, and Zornhau its nice but its only 1 hit just like Vertical Slash (does not sucks as much though). Some people like Double Earn Pay, but its too situational and most of the time somebody else will kill the boss before you do. However its all up to you. Try to watch videos with shinobi and doppel skills and decide from there.

I personally choosed doppel because of the synergy between some skills in my path:

Zornhau hits harder if mob is shocked (Crown or Zucken), Wagon Wheel and Bash lvl 3 knockdown the enemy and then you can “Punish” them,
Skull Swing a boss before Cyclone and spin around , etc.

I also had planned a very big Vertical Slash feeding it with debuffs from Crown, Crosscut, Skull Swing and Zornhau, but currently the skill is bugged and it doesnt seems to be taking them into account, so it hits like a normal attack or worse.

Now about the Barbarian buffs, indeed they are looking very good. If you can allow yourself to reroll, i would consider it, but i would first wait until IMC confirms if they will follow the same path as Ktos, because so far they havent, for example look at Moulinet skill of Highlanders, in Ktos long time ago they made the skill cancelable, and we still havent got that.

Let me share with you the ktos barbarian buffs (not the one you mentioned though):

kTOS Barbarian Changes

  • War Cry
    Cooldown decreased to 50 seconds (down from 82 seconds).

  • Frenzy
    Cooldown decreased to 70 seconds (down from 90 seconds).

  • Cleave
    Cooldown decreased to 16 seconds (down from 21 seconds).
    Overheat increase to 3 (up from 2)

  • Helm Chopper
    Cooldown decreased to 20 seconds (down from 24 seconds).
    Stun chance increased (unsure amount).

  • Seism
    Cooldown decreased to 18 seconds (down from 22 seconds).
    Stun chance increased (unsure amount).

The cleave change is huge, 3 overheat, considering the crit chance buff, is amazing (this is like 8-9% increased crit chance, but it means a lot), plus the reduced cooldowns, it really looks amazing.

I wont reroll, but thats because im working on a second char which is going to be a mix of rodelero plus barbarian and doppel (for PVP), and it happens to be that they will also be buffing rodeleros, so yeah :stuck_out_tongue:

#18

Wow thank for your answer :slight_smile:

I am still pretty unsure what to do ,) Will suck hard if i go full 2hand sword and slash damage and then they implement the +50% slash attack dmg buff from barb…

#19

i’d like to get 0cd skyliner back if they actually implement the barb buff here -.-
buffed barb vs nerfed HL, I dont think anyone gonna play HL anymore

#20

Hi, you seem to know a lot about swordman and mainly 2hs builds, i have choose the same build as you (before ktos update on Barbarian obviously).
I choosed HL first because of the Two Handed passive attribut (got bait by that bad descirption)

But now I like my HL !
I’m currently Sword > PEL1 > HL3 and going for Doppel 1+2.
I don’t want to reroll, and I prety much like HL gameplay if I know it’s far away to be the best swordman classes. But i don’t want to fail my build.

I have a some question about what skill to max out on HL3 and Doppel

This is my current build http://www.tosbase.com/tools/skill-simulator/build/wa2zrzkghn/ (If i could i would let Catar Stroke to level 3 max ~ damage doesn’t change much beetwin 3 and 5 qq)

I’m not sure where to place my last HL3 Skill point :slight_smile:
Max Skull Wing ?(I feel like damage aren’t that good, and the skill is good for the debuff mainly)

  • Crosscut ?
  • Or Crown ? To eventually increase the debuff time to help tanking on magical mobs later on.
    Also should i take Vertical Slash everyone seems to agree it’s sux and doesn’t scale well.

Would you main to share your Doppel skill and build you choosed ? And do you have any advice for my futur doppel build ?

And also about stats, I have no idea how much dex i should have for having a decent crits/evasion rates and how much con/str too. Currently sitting on a almost 4:2:1 build (Str/dex/con 200 STR / 4x Con / 9x Dex with bonus on all stats) but feel like I don’t have enough dex for dodge/crit purpose (also later on i will have gems to help crit)

Thx anyway for all your post about HL/Doppel it’s help me a lot

#21

@Carnimani
Make a second char, focus in leveling ASAP, get to the barbarian circles and see for yourself if you like it better or not. Dont ever get into a class only because of possible incoming buffs or nerfs, simply go for something you enjoy playing. You can see buffs today and nerfs tomorrow.

@Gatsu
I remade your build and added a lot of info answering your questions, you can read it over here:

Also, the two handed passive is not as sucky as people think. You only need to plan your gear /stats / skills build ahead, so you know how much you can invest into crit attack.

I prioritized DEX> Crit rate > Crit attack > STR > SPR > CON.
So i went for a heavy 90% crit rate (before crit resist) with a lot of crit attack and i love it. My non crit attacks hit like a wet noodle, but crits hit like a truck and even against mobs with high crit resist my crit is decent.

After much research, i found that highlanders do better going almost full DEX. STR forces you to take CON and also DEX, while DEX allows yo to forget about STR and even CON if you compensate with defensive armor sets. Unless your planning to pvp of course. So i would get a lot of dex with stas, until i hit at least 85-90% crit chance before crit resist, and the rest on STR, while taking CON and SPR with my armor sets (not bracelets nor necklaces, only armor sets)

Try to choose a weapon with crit rate like magi 2 handed sword:

Or a good dmg weapon with 3 slots and good crit attack like Vienie Twin Blade (my favorite)

I prefer Vienie because:

  • It has more physical attack than Magi
  • Upgrades cost less and give it more dmg
  • It has more crit attack
  • Accuracy is not needed while having so much DEX
  • Has 3 slots instead of 2 so you can compensate the crit rate loss while gaining dmg and crit attack

But i havent seen it yet, so im not sure if its implemented or not.

Try to always get green gems at least lvl 5 on your weapons (+22 crit rate) and crit attack on gloves while getting hp and sp recovery on armor. And always, always, always, roast gems before adding then to a piece of item, dont waste high lvl gems on a weapon not final unless you have a lot of mats or farm like a korean. Gems cant be traded and they cost a lot of mats to upgrade.

If you dont have stats reset, consider the actual 50% discount on founder packages and go get one. But only if you are willing to go all out on this char and wont reroll later on.

Sry for the long posts