Tree of Savior Forum

The biggest problem with modern MMOs

Gameplay Feedback General Feedback
#7

@Karjalainen

But this is 2016… not 2004, a full 11/12 years since. Don’t have to reinvent the wheel every time you make a new game now do you?

I picked RO as an example for a few reasons. A large part of the community here are RO veterans, it’s also the MMO I have the most experience in (and still play till today).

Not trying to glorify RO and piss on ToS as I have said in the OP. I’ve been thinking about this issue for a while and it struck me today that it’s not the linear progression, it’s not the P2W, it’s not the game balance, but simply that the game doesn’t have sufficient content.

Sure this is beta, and I hope it improves, however unlikely.

#8

You again, always the sama people.

1 Like
#9

At least it’s not the same topic. :sleeping:

@The_Fox

That video is pretty close to the core issue.

However, I have to say that besides RO, I’ve also quite involved in a persistent world of Never winter 1, where they had far less tools to develop that world but still made it better than most MMOs out there.

#10

Sorry, but when RO was released there wasn’t much to do as well. Don’t compare an “old” MMO to a closed beta.

1 Like
#11

/20char why is it even implemented?

#12

Most of the things you say you can do in RO, you can also do in ToS.

All I really spent most of my RO days doing (and what I would like to be able to do in ToS) was:

  • farming -> you can do this in ToS, but there isn’t as many items as RO so there isn’t quite as much to farm. (hopefully this changes over time)
  • getting mats for WoE -> no comment until a WoE-like system is implemented
  • WoE -> see above
  • MVPing -> world boss fights have too many people, and are too chaotic for my liking. I would like Mini-World Bosses to be added that have random spawns, decent drops, and can be taken down by a single party and/or a strong/skilled solo player
6 Likes
#13

Never experienced Neverwinter. To be fair though I think ToS will probably implement more features and expand the world more in the future. I like secrets and exploration so I’m kind of hoping more of that gets implemented down the line :stuck_out_tongue:

I know you mentioned that it’s 2016 not 2004 but development costs aren’t any cheaper than they were 12 years ago. There is only so much you can do before a profit has to be made. So I think being so cynical towards ToS for not having enough content is a bit unfair. Maybe wait a year and res this thread again.

That being said, your list of issues I think are somewhat valid. There have been other MMO’s with more content at launch but maybe ToS has a smaller budget.

#14

The card system in RO is great. One that should be emulated in some way.

A set of rare items with low drop rate from each mob; useful regardless of level; and farmed at any level.

I have hope when looking over the database at monster gems. If those became upgradeable - up to 5 stars? Check - all of the above.

4 Likes
#15

You’re comparing a polished RO that’s been around for over a decade, to ToS whose Korean release isn’t even half a year old.

Who knows what ToS might be like if it’s still running strong 5 years from now? It’s not really a fair comparison.

1 Like
#16

All your points mentioned can be done in ToS… Except that WoE or GVG is not quite the same, but a similar GVG system or war system exists.

#17

I do agree that ToS has a lot of potential to be great. They have this large world with beautiful assets.

However the only thing I care to do when I log in is to continue where I left off in the quest chain.

Whereas RO / Neverwinter has me thinking, “hmm what do I want to do today, out of all the options I have?”. I find that to be a really problematic game play issue.

The argument that this will be available after the main quest line is complete doesn’t resolve the issue. A game with limited content and replay value doesn’t magically have tons of content at end game when there’s arguably less things to do (check RO2).

RO & Neverwinter had a tremendous replay value. I’ve visited the same places for thousands of times, each for a different reason. Neverwinter had a significantly smaller world than RO but the replay value was even greater. The same setting is reused over and over and over and over for myriad of game play possibilities.

As of now there isn’t much reason to return to lower level in ToS. Imagine all those hard work creating the world, where it will only be traveled once / twice on our path to soft cap.

@Divini
I’m not trying to compare / bash ToS. My point is the lack of content, using RO as a familiar example.

RO being polished over a decade doesn’t lessen the issue that the content / replay value of ToS is low.

@TankezonE
In a way yes, but somehow it feels different because RO felt much more open / self directed, while ToS seems to be hand holding you the whole way there. I don’t know if this is because of the 3x Exp rate we had on CBT, but it didn’t feel as though I had a lot of options besides grinding for the next quest in the chain… The maps are chained together like candy crush levels where you move from one to the next in the exact same fashion no matter how many time you reroll a new character.

Let me sum it up real simple.

I’m already tired thinking I have to bring another character through lvl 1 - 100+ in the exact same fashion I did in iCBT1, and iCBT2

2 Likes
#18

The biggest problem with modern MMOs for me is the players. Players, for the most part, can set the tone for an MMO by how introverted or outgoing they are, how welcoming veterans are to new players, etc. These are things that can keep a player logging in even when everything else about the game feels like something they’ve already played before.

However great a game is, people tend to quit regardless when they’re playing it alone for long periods of time. If ToS fails on anything, it will be the lack of incentive for players to interact with one another and build lasting relationships. In RO(or most games, really), you met people while out in the field or crawling through Payon or Byalan Dungeon. Glast Heim is where many a young Acolyte struck up a friendship with an elder Priest who happened to wander by and help them out with Resurrection.

4 Likes
#19

I’m afraid the auto party system in iCBT2 isn’t helping with this issue at all. And also the level range limitation only worsens this issue…

#20

Didn’t you split some similar points? like

  • Do WOE
  • Prepare for WOE
  • Organize for WOE
    …

Honestly, I think we do most of those things:

  • Grind for xp (YES)
  • Grind for zeny (YES, silver)
  • Grind for consumables (YES)
  • Grind for equipment (YES)
  • Grind for enchantments (cards) (YES, normal gems and monster gems)
  • Grind for equipment enhancement (elu/ori) (YES, magic scrolls)
  • Grind for crafting mats (YES)
  • Do a quest (real storytelling, not some generic ■■■■ quest) (OK, subjective)
  • Do a class change quest (actually involved quests) (YES)
  • Do a quest to get access to dungeon (really long, takes a few days for some quests) (NO, I think :stuck_out_tongue:)
  • Craft consumables (YES)
  • Fight a boss (YES)
  • Fight other people (YES)
  • Form a party (it took real time) (YES)
  • Form a guild (YES)
  • Do guild events (YES)
  • Help a new player (YES)
  • Help a new player more ( ? )
  • Discover new items (YES)
  • Discover new builds (YES)
  • Discover new places (YES, actually, I have more fun doing this in ToS, beautiful art!)
  • Do an instanced dungeon (YES, although I don’t remember instanced dungeons in RO)
  • Do WOE (Do GvG)
  • Prepare for WOE (Prepare for GvG)
  • Organize for WOE (Organize for GvG)

Not exactly the same, seriously, but I think you went too hard on it. In my opinion we can do most of these things. They need some tune, but I’m fine as I see the game improving constantly :slight_smile:

Edit: Probably you were talking about more diversity in points like “Craft consumables” right? If so, I agree!

4 Likes
#21

Didn’t really want to reply this initially but I kinda have to clarify:

Yes you can do a lot of these things in ToS right now but as part of a progression chain. It is not self directed. e.g. You won’t log in thinking, oh hey I need that abc item for xyz purpose, I should farm for it. Instead you get your item through the main quest chain.

Can’t really help a new player besides some random buffs because of level restrictions. Join their party they get 0 exp as opposed to you getting 0 exp.

ToS builds seem very limited. There’s only 1/2 ways to build each class.

Art is beautiful but you don’t explore it. You’re led by your nose to that place (through the main quest chain)

I split the points because each would take real time to do (like 30+ mins)

Regardless the main argument is that there isn’t enough content in ToS as it stand right now. And this threads serves as a reminder that IMC has a long way of adding contents to make this game replayable.

1 Like
#22

It’s fine, I too think the main quest chain is a big problem. I like to go to different fields and just grind, specially when we have multiple options for the same level range.

I thought the exp share was the same, it’s been some years since I last played it, so won’t talk about anymore :slight_smile:

Only thing I don’t really agree is the: [quote=“CookyKim, post:21, topic:153067”]
ToS builds seem very limited. There’s only 1/2 ways to build each class.
[/quote]
it’s limited but it has been improving a lot! As an archer player, I remember when we had no good options for the first ranks. The we got archer c2 buff to critical rate. Then we got a huge change in steady aim and now in quarrel shooter running shot. We have many ways to go now, and although this is a small part of the progress, it’s nice when you see real improvements to your class! :grin:

I agree to some extent. I just have hopes for the future, with so much to come. :wink:

1 Like
#23

Well, you don’t have to. Just don’t play the game and problem solved o_o… Besides, the options diversify once you hit later ranks. The beginning is a little linear for obvious reasons. The current MMORPG’s are made taking into consideration that the current human population like everything easy, they are too lazy/dumb to put some effort or think about how to improve/succeed. Times change for better or worse, the old good fashion stuff would not sell so well for them, even if the result would have been better for some… That “some” are a minority in the current world, and it is harder to make money off from a minority in the MMORPG business.

#24

How long does this take? I got to about 150+ levels in CBT2 and didn’t see much changes to the candy crush progression.

I don’t know about that. ToS was announced to target RO veterans. So we are already a niche community.

#25

Actually, they implemented a different route for beginners if I’m not mistaken. You can start in another city and do a different set of quests in the early stage.

Actually, I think this game community is not only composed of Ragnarok online veterans, and the final user population will be composed of more than just ragnarok players… So, no, we are not a niche community.

#26

I think one of the issues lies in the first draft of MMOs. Usually an idea of some sort sparks the development, yet when that’s on the table, little thought is given on how to adapt it to the format. That results in the same ol’ MMO staples we see over and over, because something’s needed to fill the void and make the game playable.

A solid, well-thought game requires a deep level of commitment from the staff as a whole, which is especially rare on MMOs because of the magnitude of it. People get hired without really showing an interest on the game, because they are skilled at their craft and work diligently…towards a goal they don’t really share with the core group, and there’s no real way to avoid that, there’s no one at fault for that.

So that raw potential gets pushed back and back as it meets the requirements of modern gaming. A decade ago people had little expectations, which made the experiences so much more thrilling. Now it’s a different story of course, so I can’t really blame developers at all. Not saying there aren’t moneygrabbers here and there, but they are certainly not as many as we think they are.

3 Likes