I think in the end str dex hybrid will offer superior damage.
High upgrades. The stronger your weapon is, the stronger your crits will be. Thats the scaling vs flat damage.
What about hop3/doppel/goons? would it be better to go str also?
You can still get 830 p attack from full str build with lvl 330 cap.
602 p attack from 3 str: 1 con build.
This scales well with DoV. Dragoon 2 builds have it at least at lvl 5.
Yeah I know that Str is needed for more damage but whatâs the point of more damage when you are dead? Unless you have tons of SUPPORT, something solo players like me canât really afford. FYI, I do have a circle of Pelt in my Doppel build but trying to do mobs 10 levels higher than me is pretty much suicide. Especially in missions where mobs levels can go even higher. Thanks IMC.
I think I will stick to Fencer for now. Going Doppel High Str is not really my thing, especially when you have to jump around like a monkey to avoid boss attacks
Dunno boutâ other classes.
I remember reading somewhere here in the forums someone doing skill damage tests with a âfull dex vs full strâ swordies, and results were hardly notable, full str builtâs damage didnât go past 3k difference(total dmg) against the full dex.
Unless skills properly get good scaling modifiers, in later levels dex will still be better against str by just only a little.
Survivability>>DPS imo.
I only have level 3 DoV and oh boy it already hits like a truck. I have full plate mastery and full plate set, whenever I fully stack my DoV, damages from Siau mission goes from 1k to 2-3k. I think defense isnât linear as -1 def = 1 additional damage as everybody thinks it is.
Def is definitely great against multi hit skills but not against something like Meteor. I bet those top Doppel players have Clerics running around to heal them almost 24/7
I think its clear here in the swordsman sub-forum that i advocate high str builds with minimal dex now hereâs a guy that has videos to back up his claims, may he be supported by a party or not the point is that str still brings out swordsman to its full potential now you dex peeps are only countering his claims with just theories with no concrete evidences of your claims i suggest post youâre videos to counter his claims and then weâll talk.
Edit:
Exclude fencers in this debate because obviously we all know that fencers especially fencer3 benefits from high dex builds.
Depends on what you want to perform.
Peforming only in solo scenarios or only in party scenarios, two diferent worlds.
Performing well at both. Another world as well.
You cannot perform solo in ET.
You cannot perform in parties in 130/145 dg solo grind.
then why not add con? magic damage deals most damage anyway.
Fencer is a dex class anyway, there is no reason to add str in a class that is designed to be built with dex.
the str vs dex debate is for classes that arenât stat specific
fencer on the other hand is very stat specific.
now imo it goes like this for the dex vs str debate
you want maxed damage as a swordy you need str
you want maxed damage as an archer you need dex.
wugushis obviously need str and fencers obviously need dex.
Literally weâre going back to quest number one, where the guide says âswordies is a class that build strâ
"archers are a class that build dex
the game literally says it the first thing when you open your character. I think they know better than us.
Now for the str vs dex debate, since this is swordsman forum and not archer.
If you want to deal damage as a swordsman you need str period. you cannot rely on crits since you donât get a crit bonus like archers
you cannot rely on crits for pvp for obvious reasons that i wonât talk about
now dex DOES has a role in pvp for swordsmen, if you want to pvp with your swordsman you need to add dex or you are completely useless against archers and swordies.
Wait wait wait, please reply to a comment with 7k+base damage skill dragoon. You reply this type of comment already.
not sure what you are trying to say.
Because Con will not matter much when you literally have 0 defense when you activated DOV. Magic + Physical damage = dead or low health Doppel. I learned this the hard way after I foolishly tried to rely on DOV to get more damage Thanks to that, I became a big burden in that dungeon run.
Sure, a single point in Str at rank 8 will net you 1.3*1.8 = 2.34 PATK. But according to the spreadsheet (I think itâs somewhere in this forum) that show us to get Str so we can get more damage, the break even point between Str and Dex is around 3k damage where Dex will actually out-DPS Str. Have a look at R8 skills, many of them have close or even more than 3k base damage. This obviously means Dex build will start to become more and more relevant. That was what @hng.ngc.minh was trying to say.
Released info of R8 classes is the reason why Dex supporters are rising up again. Simply because Dex will become better for DPS as proven mathematically by the community.
Sure, Str builds at the moment is still the best. But we will see once R8 is out on iTOS.
PS: I was talking about PVE, I have literally no experience to talk about PVP
people are calculating too much and the str vs dex debate leave people more confused.
you guys are just going around in circles trying to figure out something that cannot be figured out
and if someone is poor, full str will be better than full dex.
If you donât have the money to buy the gear iâd say go str anyway.
At higher lvls you wonât be critting with dex alone anyway, and even if you do, that means you have so much dex you wonât be making good damage without good gear and high attributes
if you are a newbie, go str. no need to worry about no gear to rely on damage.
You are calculating something that is relevant for those who have the millions to buy this gear.
Not everyone can +15 their weapon with double glads and full crit attack+physical attack head gear and maxed attributes.
As of now str is still stronger for swordsmen anyway.
I really donât see any reason to calculate this or go to spreadsheets wasting all your time and my time just to prove something like that.
Now again this is all from a PVE perspective in pvp both archers and swordies you need dex and there is no argument against that, you simply are going to miss 90% of the time against other pvp evasion builds.
Itâs even worse than being against a full con pelt 3 squire. You simply wonât be making any damage.
Pvp doesnât consist only of wizard and any1 who gonna limit his build just to defeat wizards only is doing it wrong
Nothing you said addresses the fact that STR has a huge problem. STR doesnât scale well enough to compete with DEX when abilities have such high base numbers. The percentage gain from STR starts to plummet while DEX remains constant when your abilities have such high base damage numbers.
this is assuming you crit
you need more than dex alone to crit. all iâm saying is if you donât have the money to buy the right gear better just go dex so youâll have a nice damage boost w/e needing to buy gear
Again this is swordsman topic, swordsmen donât get the crit bonus archers does and will need gear to crit.
Now if you are the perfect player with all the money in the world, dex is probably better for you. this is why dex is popular in ktos because these guys got tons of silver
this is not the case in itos and the casual player.
You donât crit easily against 250+ monsters without high lvl green gems and crit gear, you need 400+ crit rate to crit effectively, i found my swordy with 280 crit rate at lvl 267 simply not able to provide yellow damage, but i keep my dex for pvp purposes since i donât care about pve or maxing damage.
And in pvp as we know it you wonât be landing crit against any good pvp player.
full con and aias is enough to shut down any dex build.
i would like to give my 2cents for this debate, first i will talk about damage:
the one calling for STR(akisera), was doing it for DOPPELL builds, and mostly because of DOV, and he is RIGHT, str would give fair more damage and this is true even at rank8 for doppel, since str+dov can give up to 3-4k P.atk for a good doppel, where their skills because are multi hit(skills having up to 10-13 hits), works better with str, if you want to go for dex WITH doppel is fine as well but you will have lower damage than a STR doppel and you WILL only be able to caught up, once you have transcendence weapon with fair HIGH levell you will be able to close the damage gap, the maths have proof of that, if anyone have doubts just check many of the spreadsheets we have so far, the only problem was HOW we will achieve the breakpoints in damage where DEX do the same damage as STR , and now we CAN, but is fair hard without doubt and most important this does not mean that EVERYONE will be able to do it nor that will work the same for every build and at least will not with doppel3 without fair high time invested in the game, since transcendence there is a limit of how much you can gain per day so the multihit skill toolkit from doppel work better with str+dov and will always be at the current game.
about other builds:
now with the arrive of rank8, for fencer and dragon, it also clearly that for fencer Dex/con is the way to go ,there is no point saying otherwise, but for dragon a good str is better as well, because you have finestra but by the end of it if you choice to go dex or full dex you may also do GOOD because dethrone have such a low CD that will allow you to spam it every time with critical but by the end of it the rest of dragon toolkit works better with STR as well, because again he already have finestra and i must say if you are starting right now, dex for dragon is a perfect valid build, but if you are str there is no need to reset, because str builds STILL does more damage in the end ,at least right now or until you go fair high level with the transcendence
system.
Now letâs not forget about some things VIABILITY is not the same as BETTER: what we have many players here, who defend STR, again akisera in doppel case, is calling the fact that with STR you will do more damage and this means that is better for him but many people may not see only "higher damage as being better " so this is not the same as the VIABILITY of DEX builds because in the past you would do far less damage than a STR build but right NOW we have transcendence system to boost their ATK, the only difference between both builds is what you want and how you will equip it, since with DEX you will have to favor the transcendence system/enchant weapon first, where with STR you will focus on gems for critical rate and so on and this is the important fact because each one of them needs different way to achieve the best DPS , be clearly of what you want to do, and where you want to be and once you know , both builds will work. but the main difference if you choice dex or STR will happen in PVP, and i will explain why.
now about PVP:
Now about the entire miss-evasion talk, evasion always cap at 80%, so even a full str character would still hit 1/5+ of the time, but this is not even the big problem, before anyone come saying , i will say for experience of someone who plays every week at top20 of my server (last week i ended in 8 ) and do fair good in GVG as well, i will not even comment duels, since there is no merit in duel, only GVG and LEAGUE:
DEX will be better for pvp at lower ranks ONLY because once you go HIGH, is not archers who WIN the game, nor are the wizards (but they do more than archers at least), is the â â â â â â â CLERIC and for cleric you need STR, to by pass his block-defense, there may be one super stronger gokustyle archer who is so strong that can kill the entire enemy team in your server but at least in mine i never saw one, i never ever saw a match in upper ranks where the archer have made the break point so his team could win , i have seen archers killing cleric, and archers killing swordsman (lol-me) but i also have seen they dying from my attacks so they of course help and is fair easy than swords to play in pvp but they are not the main actors in any fight; the main actor will always be the cleric and the wizards, at least in the current game.
so in the end by going dex you are ONLY aiming for archers, and trust me this will make nothing of you in the long run and by the end you team will loose as well and as high you go on pvp, you see even more clerics, so heal will be always available, but in the end is still up to you and what you want to do.
on a final TIP for anyone who want to do pvp with swordsman.
please mark this in your heart you will never be able to do everything if you are playing a swordsman, you can only choice one option :
**if is to kill archers-swordsman>>> please go on with DEX. **
if it is kill wizards full con(the supp ones) - cleric>>>>go with Str.
the only difference in PVP is that and by extend the difference in builds , because both builds will have a fair number of points in con and damage comes from the game mechanics already be it with dexcards+gems in a STR build or the transcendence system in DEX builds by the end of it the real question is who you want to target, it is archers or it is cleric/wizards? and be aware that not every time you will face the one who you are building you character for.
Ps: when i say lower ranks, i what to say 50+ for example.
2 Likes
your perspective is wrong.
the goal is to be the best pvp against every1. not JUST against wizards and clerics
gonig full dex is stupid for any person who wants to pvp, but having about 150-180 dex is very reasonable in pvp builds, you can still kill a cleric with 200 str instead of 400 str, but you canât kill an archer
again the goal is to maximize pvp performance, you wonât be dodging or missing against clerics and some builds like cataphract can even grab them out of safety zone.
most pvp builds have the capability to melt down 40k hp easily, i think the best pvp builds for swordsmen are HYBRID builds focused both on str AND dex, what i do is im keeping an accuracy emergency set so if im against a very high evasion build ill quickly switch to my accuracy gloves and head gear which will give me about 800-900 accuracy and im good, i personally added up to 160 dex for my catagoon, i want to be the best pvp period
i donât want to lose to a swordy or an archer just because wizard is better.
A proper priest who build full spr can get around enough block that even going full str wonât cut it, you cannot build yourself around 1 build and 1 person this is a bad perspective. youâll be losing to most archers and swordies and just beat clerics? not for me sorry.
top 20 dragoon in klaipeda here.
@razm2888: You dwell too much on the present. R8 is almost around the corner, only 1 month away.
The reason why Dex vs Str debate was brought up once again because sooner or later Dex will out-DPS Str as proven in the spreadsheet that once proved going Str was better for Swordman.
Furthermore, Dex also acts as a defensive stat thanks to evasion. High Dex Fencers can comfortably tank bosses and dealing damage while Str builds have to run around in order to avoid boss attacks thus results in actual loss of DPS for Str builds.
A dead Swordman deals no damage, thatâs what I believe. Not everyone has the same conditions as akisera