Tree of Savior Forum

[Suggestion] Flatten the DEX

Suggestions Game
#1

Having a system where one stat works as a flat bonus (1 STR = 1 DMG) and the other works with percentage values (if you crit you deal 50% more dmg, DEX adds crit chance) will never be balanced. STR will always be better in early game and DEX much more valuable in late game due to weapons high base damage and poor STR scaling.

My suggestion is to either make everything flat, or make everything percentage based.

[Option A] Everything Flat

Take out the 1.5x damage multiplier on crits. Crits will deal normal damage but adding the critical attack damage bonus. Balance it out by giving each point of DEX +2 critical attack as well.

If you were to crit all the time, DEX would still give the same bonus damage as STR and the accuracy / evasion bonuses as well. But of course you won’t be doing crits 100% of the time. If you’re brave enough you can nerf it down to +1 critical attack per DEX point, or if the system allows it, floating point values.

[Option B] Everything Percentage

Keep everything as it is, but give additional percentage bonuses to other stats to balance it out. My suggestion is:

  • Every 10 STR you get an additional 5% to your Physical damage
  • Every 10 CON you get an additional 2.5% HP and 2.5% Physical defense
  • Every 10 INT you get an additional 5% to your Magical damage
  • Every 10 SPR you get an additional 2.5% SP and 2.5% Magical defense

Maybe tweak the numbers a bit. 5% Damage for 10 STR sounds a bit high, maybe divide everything by 2 or 4.

Conclusion
Option A is easy to implement, but may make stats useless on extremely higher content. You would need a lot more stat points to keep up with the advancing bonuses coming from higher level weapons. Easier solution.

Option B would make stats more valuable in end-game content, but it may also require a monster database and item database overhaul depending on how it’s implemented. More complicated solution.

Opinions?

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#2

Yes, tweak those numbers, theyre too strong IMO.

  • Every 10 STR you get an additional 1% to your Physical damage
  • Every 10 CON you get an additional 2.5% HP and 0.5% Physical defense
  • Every 10 INT you get an additional 1% to your Magical damage
  • Every 10 SPR you get an additional 2.5% SP and 0.5% Magical defense

These would be the values Id agree.

#3

For every class rank, you gain 10% additional STR/INT.

Hope that helps.

#4

Dunno what’s the best solution
But as we speak about solutions, we are making it clear to the devs that the game is broken somewhere
The game’s math is all messed up

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#5

10% Bonus STR Isn’t the same as 5% (or 1%) more damage on your total physical attack with your weapon base damage included.

That bonus doesn’t really relate to my suggestion.

But bonuses are always welcome though :smile:

#6

They could just change the bonus you get from status based on your class…and change the damage output calculation because its pretty messed up.

#7

This wasn’t meant as an alternate suggestion. :sweat_smile:
It’s a bonus that’s currently already being applied to STR and INT.

#8

One of the main source of all imbalance of the game comes from all the flat values.

This is not only about the stats, but about the skills too. If the skills gives flat bonus do damage, then critical will be always more valuable than strength. if you have an skill with 1000 additional damage,. that means that a critical increase this damage by 500. And we all know how hard is to get this same 500 with strenght.

In other words, with the game math as it is, dex will be always more valuable on the late game, because you get flat value from weapon + skill and % value from criticals. That makes your damage higher than if it was str + weapon + skill.

for the status to have a real relevance late the damage needed to be (str + weapon - def) x skill damage x critical damage. As longe it is ((str + weapon + skill) x critical) - def the game will be unbalance.

here more detail about the calculations: http://forum.tosbase.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1680

2 Likes
#9

Most players don’t even bother getting DEX after STR and INT got their bonus % from each rank you take.

They just get if for 100% accuracy or if they have crit chance multipliers like Archer C2 or Barbarian.

Stats are fine overall.

#10

Join me in this brief, very brief brainrain, as a storm would require more time; Right now, the role playing teme behind Spirit is quite right, enlarges mana pool and increases its regen, okay there, but… why it is giving magick and block penetration will remain a mystery untill the devs give us some insight on it.
Next in line, we have Dexterity, gives crit chance, hit ratio and dodge ; Quite alright, but, could be better if it receives the block penetration from Spirit, a dextrous one can easily go through the enemy defenses.
As i started from Spirit and moved on to Dexterity, the next on this " line " would be Strenght, not so strong statwise tho; Has very poor scaling, ads a bit of carryweight and a litle bit health with certain amount of points; Abilities shold have a lower base dmg, and scale of certain stats, with disclosed percentages. A strong one shold be feared in close combat.
Next would be Constitution, Con is alright from the role playing POV, Con does what it shold, gets you beefier.
Intellect, to be quick, i believe it needs the magick pen from Spirit plus scaling on spells.

All in all, our present stats are lackluster, they work at niche roles, aside from Spirit, no other stats are worth on certain classes; So… bring back Agility and Luck, you may ask why, and here is some points worth mentioning:
Agility can govern the dodge and atack speed, having an atack speed system in place can cap the swordsman power output, requiring wiser point management, instead of going full STR early on, and resetting later in game for full DEX.
Luck is our jack of all trades stat, improves everything slightly, and directly governs our crits.

By bringing back those quintessential stats, we must readjust what we have.
Dexterity will govern our hit ratio and armor penetration, yes, armor pen, not block pen, with this in mind, hitting high block rate targets will need positioning. the numbers on armor pen are not to be of concern right now, as this is mere a suggestion.
Agility will govern atack speed and dodge, implementing atack speed would be a step in the right direction to bridge the collosal gap that exists between the swordsman damage output in relation to other classes.

#11

I don’t think we need another status, i just think that they should define better what each status does.

As it is now, the only status really worth attention are SPR and DEX. And what both those status have in common? Both affect you offensive potential (SPR with the SP to cast skill and DEX with Hit and Critical), Str and Int are not necessary when you get far more damage from weapons and skills. Con increase the HP, but not the Physical Def, so it don’t reduce the damage taken wich reduce it’s effectiveness (while SPR reduce mag damage)

They should reditribute the role of each status: For example:

STR:

  • Phys Atk
  • Block
  • Max Weight

CON

  • HP / HP regen
  • Phys Def
  • Max Weight

INT

  • Mag Atk
  • Crit Resist

SPR

  • SP / SP regen
  • Mag Def

DEX

  • Crit Rate
  • Hit
  • Eva

Anyway, just chaning the status wouldn’t solve the problem alone.

#12

From your argumentation and from common sense DEX should improve block penetration but not armor penetration as blocking is all you do in close combat in avoiding injury by tackling enemy attacks while armor penetration depends on the hit and strength of armor (cloth<leather<plate). Also DEX should improve your own blocking ability as it also depends on how skillful you are with your shield and weapon.
AGI should improve evasion und aspd.
This might get way too complicated but sounds good to me:
An archer shoots with a bow at a swordman with shield. His attack has: weapon power, how well the attack is placed (DEX), and in the long run aspd determines how many arrows he shoots in a time period.
On the other side the warrior with the shield: His defense is: Damage resistance (CON and others), armor (say: plate) his shield (Block rate determined by DEX) and his Evasion (AGI).
Now when the arror reaches him it first is determined whether he avoided the hit (AGI vs. enemy’s DEX). If its a hit then the calculation proceedes: then its whether the warrior blocks (DEX vs. DEX) - how well placed is the shot and how well placed is the shield on the incoming attack (just imagination - no need to consider this ingame I guess). If the warrior fails with his block it’s a direct hit and then it’s weapon power (bow) vs. warriors armor (say: plate) and the difference is the HP damage if he has no other intrinsic resistances.
In melee it should be similar but maybe blocking a melee hit with a shield or weapon should consider the physical strength of the attacker (blockerDEX vs. attackerDEX * attackerSTR/balancefactor)

#13

“Hey dex giving 50% more damage was too strong so let me suggest 100 STR giving 100 damage AND also 50% more physical damage…hmm, maybe that’s too strong”

YOU THINK?

That said, Dex does not ‘beat’ Str, the two compliments each other, and with crit chance going up to 100% at that point you’d have to invest into Str for further damage increases.

People seem to forget there’s more than just stat to customize your character.
For example, pure Str build can use green gem to supplement their crit rate (if my memory serves, 3 max rank green gem would give you almost 300 crit rate)
I forgot the yellow value, but let’s say it’s 140 crit attack.

So just make a hypothetical situation, assuming those value are true.
Player A went pure Str (about 500 Str after all the stat bonus + the 50% Str increases from rank up) and put 3 green gem in his sockets (-150 or so crit damage)
Player B went pure Dex and get 3 yellow gems (520 crit attack, negative is accuracy so negligible for dex build)

A have 500 attack higher, 350 crit damaage, and very high crit chance, but low evasion so he has to rely on manually moving to not get hit
B have 520 crit damage more than base gear, but can dodge things at a fairly high chance (not 100%, pretty much all bosses have high accuracy or just magic attack that can’t be dodged)

Now can you still say with absolute confidence that Dex build is better?

Heck, even without that example, I’m almost certain someone can sit down to number crunch and points that full Dex is NOT the ‘best’ option, but also neither is full Str. Rather it’d be somewhere in between.

#14

That is the theory, but it’s not like that in practice. STR have little impact on damage later in the game (increasing you damage from 3000 to 3200 is not THAT impactful) while the impact of the critical rate (wich is very hard to cap, even an full dex archer can’t cap it) is proportional. Also your math is not taking into account the skill damage.

#15

So I just listed STR build adding 500 attack and you counter it with 3000->3200…great counter argument.

Tell me, in your example, how would changing from Str to Dex affect your damage on average?
If you’d like to say my math doesn’t take into account skill damage, feel free to list real number too?

#16

Let’s go then the long way. First, your argument is totally flawed, because 500 is not obtainable on the current content. But let’s assume your 500 STR, at the point you have 500 STR you are around lvl 300 (lvl 300 rank 6 = 480 STR), it’s safe to assume you have at last a 300 damage weapon. Dont forget that level ALSO increase the Attack, so your base attack is Level + STR.
You know that there are skill with 2000 additional damage (even more considering the additional 100% from attribute mastery, but let’s use 2000 because it’s a rounded value), at last that you know right? Let’s assume a No Dex character have 10% critical.

So let’s go some math, the avarage damage can be found with:
(chance for crit) * (1,5*(atk+wpn atk+skill atk)+crit atk)+(chance for no crit) * (atk+skill atk)

STR 500 / No critical
(0,1) * (1,5 * (800 + 300 + 2000) + 500) + (0,9) * (800 + 300 + 2000)
AVG damage = 3305

No STR / 100% critical
(1) * (1,5 * (300 + 300 + 2000) + 0) + (0) * (300+ 300 + 2000)
AVG damage = 3900

So, the higher the skill damage and weapon attack, the less efficient STR is in comparison to DEX. STR is only worth when you reach the critical cap (wich the exact point is unknow).
Also, considering how small is the impact of STR in the final damage unless you go full STR, i would rather increse SPR (for more skill spam) or CON (for more HP) with any spare point once CRIT is maxed.

Are you happy now or that was too much math for you?

#17

Here’s a video of someone with 464 Str And 192 crit rate at lv 200, not sure of his gear tho so maybe the base stat could be less.

The highest physical skill damage I can find is also around 1400-1500, though feel free to correct me there.
And if I’m not mistaken Enhance attribute applies to overall damage, not just skill’s damage alone, in which case it’s another % modifier that applies to both build, widening the difference if there’s any but not a factor to shift which is better.

And my initial post mentioned this thing called gems existing, and that high level green gem give quite a lot of crit rate…

So no, I’m not happy, not because it’s too much math, but because once again you just pull number out of thin air instead of using REAL number.

Btw, this was my actual final statement:

#18

[quote=“rofldat, post:17, topic:104514”]
The highest physical skill damage I can find is also around 1400-1500
[/quote]With 0 attribute mastery. Attribute enhace increase only the skill additional damage, not the overall damage. That’s why i said 2000 was common for lategame classes with 100% attribute enhace.

One thing is a fact: at higher values, DEX have more impact on average damage, because DEX is % based (50% of damage), and STR is flat. If you have a base damage of 1000, you need 500 STR to have the same impact as 300 dex (a value close to the Critical cap).
At late, the only thing STR is useful for is to further increase the damage once you have a very high DEX with capped critical. But still, STR is only good when you have very high STR. Yes 500 STR can be close to de damage addition of the critical, but 200 STR not.

  • If you go Full, Full DEX is superior to Full STR
  • If you go 1 Str /1 Dex your average damage will be lower than full DEX
  • If you go 1 Str /3 Dex then the poinst on STR are just being wasted, because low STR have low impact on the overall damage.

Anyway belive what you want, but the math is here to show that things aren’t as you.
All you have is a single video of someone you don’t even know all the equip setup with full str. He could go all STR and equips for crit, but wouldn’t be better simply go all DEX and equips for damage? Damage is easier to obtain than crit. The same way that gems can give critical, gems can give damage. And since STR gets worst as the base damage increases, you could instead go full DEX and increase the attack by other means (gems, equipment, skills). What is more valuable? 100 flat damage or 100 critical (wich result in about 30% more damage?)

And i’m not even taking into account that DEX gives both Hit and Eva. While Str is only damage.
With high STR and critical equips, you have high damage, and high critical.
With high DEX and damage equips, you have high damage, high critical, high hit, high eva.

#19

[quote=“victor_sant, post:18, topic:104514”]
Attribute enhace increase only the skill additional damage, not the overall damage.
[/quote]It does take your base and weapon attack in count, I am just not sure if it is calculated before or after critical damage (because my main is a Wizard and can’t crit :blush: ). My bet would be that it kicks in before critical tho.

Ignoring critical chance, additional damage buffs and stuff, the formula is:
((base atk + weapon atk + skill base dmg) * attribute multiplier) - defense

[quote=“victor_sant, post:18, topic:104514”]
DEX have more impact on average damage, because DEX is % based (50% of damage), and STR is flat.
[/quote]At the same time, critical resistence is more detrimental do DEX than defense is to STR (because you would suffer from defense with just base + weapon atk anyways).

This are just a few things to remember, but I agree with you overall. Getting like 80%+ critical from DEX and gems, and then dunping points in STR, would be more impactful. But it takes time and a lot of suffering until that, lol.

#20

In my tests It doesn’t, in my case i tested with thrust. With the attribute at lvl 10 (+10%) and thrust at lvl 1 (56 additional damage) the average damage increased by 6.
With my attack of 146-167. the average damage should be increased by 19-22 if base and weapon was taken into account

[quote=“Satoru, post:19, topic:104514”]
This are just a few things to remember, but I agree with you overall. Getting like 80%+ critical from DEX and gems, and then dunping points in STR, would be more impactful. But it takes time and a lot of suffering until that, lol.
[/quote]We’re talking about endgame stats. Yes it’s hader to level without STR since it have a higher impact early.