they already implemented somewhat of a fix here, skill builds still want dex but str now gets a bonus depending on your class rank 10% per supposedly so 60% str bonus at current cap. theres still some min maxing math to do but it does change a lot about the game. current auto attack builds can (in the end) deal much more damage over the time that dex builds wait for cooldowns. skill dex builds are certainly really strong early and much more flashy.
This may sound a little drastic, but this game really needs to overhaul how damage works. Despite having such a high max level, there is very little sense of improvement, because skill damage doesnât scale and stats just add a flat value to damage. Those simplistic formulae wonât do for balancing. As mentioned, DEX will be best ultimately, and it not only improves dps but also evasion, so it works for both defense and offense. Even critical damage bonuses from STR seem to add a flat damage, so I donât think going STR for even that is worth it.
This is the problem with the whole 400-level progression thing, it just makes things harder to balance out and limits leveling to a couple maps for your range despite there being so many areas to explore. The game is huge, but the way weâre limited to follow maps in a set order most of the time is just underwhelming.
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Also the problem with how damage works is that most of your early skills will ultimately become useless, because they need to have damage stats that are sensible for that stage of the game. So despite having so many options to getting to R8/R9, in the end it may well turn out that it doesnât really matter much, because R8/R9 skills will be what matters in the end and only some utility/buffs from previous classes will make a difference.
I share this opinion, all this additions of flat values will be very hard to balance. All the math involved in combat is quite poor.
As thing are now, i will not play the OBT if they donât change it, wich probably they wonât. =/
str adds 1 point to normal damage which is increased by 50% when you crit then adds additional 2 damage to the crit at a flat rate. so each str gives 3.5 additional damage on a critical hit. the trick here is a lot of classes have critcal rate bonuses so you can hit 80-100% crit without going 100% dex. but with all skills on cooldown str contributes quite a bit to your dps and as you get higher youll notice that its harder and harder to get by just on skills as they no longer 1 shot everything you see. there are still many things to test, but yes at a low level crit outweighs str by so much itâs kind of crazy. skills add so much damage and weapons also add a ton which outpaces str by a large degree.
Actually STR adds 1 to critical damage (Crit damage = STR unless you use items to increase it). So Each point of STR adds 3 to final damage when crit. Also itâs not that easy to get 80% crit rate. An archer for example need to be 100% dex to have 76% critical at lvl 120.
This topic has all the math that show that DEX > STR on the endgame: http://forum.tosbase.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1680
I didnât see it mentioned here between all the math war but, letâs not forget stats have a bonus yielding every x points depending on how much you already have.
1~50: Every 5th point.
51~150: Every 4th point.
151~300: Every 3rd point.
301~500: Every 2nd point.
500+: Every point.
That said, i only mentioned this for the sake of comparing crit vs raw attack. I strongly believe stats and skills need actual scaling, and i also will not be playing on launch if there still isnât. Not a lotta players like to stick around and wait for the ârenewalsâ that games tend to get a few years after release - whichâs when companies try to fix the senseless bullshit that had no business ever being in the game in the first place.
[quote=âvictor_sant, post:20, topic:104514â]
In my tests It doesnât, in my case i tested with thrust. With the attribute at lvl 10 (+10%) and thrust at lvl 1 (56 additional damage) the average damage increased by 6. With my attack of 146-167. the average damage should be increased by 19-22 if base and weapon was taken into account
[/quote]We havenât figured how the damage formula actually is, we only have a grasp of the overall thinking.
Either way, your level and the attribute level is too low to actually make a difference.
I have a level 100 Wizard on KR with 344 MATK. On a monster from Tenet Chapel (Yognome), my basic attack does 309 damage with no magic amplification.
My level 1 Fire Ball (74 base damage) with level 40 Enhance Attribute does 536 damage.
Yognome is lightning type and has plate armor, so no bonuses coming from that.
[quote=âfabiohenm, post:22, topic:104514â]
because skill damage doesnât scale and stats just add a flat value to damage.
[/quote]Every skill scales at least with 100% of your atk, plus an addition of up to 100% bonus damage with Enhance attributes.
Skills wonât become useless if it is what you wanna say.
Let people get to lvl 400~600 before complaining it will go wrong. A lot of people in this forum keeps saying damage of X class is trash, when they are like level 40, with no upgraded weapon, no enhance attributes, no gems, no nothing.
I know there is a chance of the game not working that well. But give IMC some credit and wait to see how it will turn out. They can fix it later if it goes wrong. But if it goes right, they donât have to waste their time now.
This is true and also STR/INT seem to be relatively easier to get higher than dex. Itâs still hard to believe STR wonât be ultimately surpassed though.
The damage formula is simple = Attack + Skill damage - Def. Yes, this is that bland.
Also no matter the level of the attribute. Math is a exact science. 10% is 10%, and in the tests it wasnât 10% with low or high value. The only match was 56 + 10% = 61 wich was exactly the difference.
[quote=âSatoru, post:28, topic:104514â]
Every skill scales at least with 100% of your atk, plus an addition of up to 100% bonus damage with Enhance attributes.
[/quote]Itâs still not proved that it actually scales beyond the skill damage.
[quote=âSatoru, post:28, topic:104514â]
I know there is a chance of the game not working that well. But give IMC some credit and wait to see how it will turn out. They can fix it later if it goes wrong. But if it goes right, they donât have to waste their time now.
[/quote]The fact that the basic mechanic (all values are flat additions) didnât change from the first CTB lower my hopes for this to change. They can mess with the numbers (IE nerf Catar Stroke, Helm Chopper and Seism) but this will not change what causes the balance issues. The nature of the math of the game is the root of the balance issues and i doubt it will change.
Sure, print me the datamined file with the formula.
By your formula, my Fire Ball damage should be:
(344 + 74*1,4) - 35 = 412,6
My formula:
(344 + 74)*1,4 - 35 = 550,2
Neither gets the exact result, but mine got closer.
@Edit
Actually, I just checked tosbase, and Yognome has 60 mdef (that is datamined, unlike your formula), but my basic attack is only reduced by 35.
Another proof that the formula is not 100% flat/known.
@Edit2
Another test to see if level difference was what made values inconsistent:
Level 97 Tama, 135 mdef (only 3 levels difference from me)
Basic attack: 234 (110 damage reduction, not 135)
Fire Ball: 431 (more than (344 + 74*1,4) - 135)
Closer?
146 - 167 = 156 avg (my attack)
156 - 57 = 99 (basic attack avg)
156 + 56 - 57 = 155 (skill avg without attribute)
156 + 56 * 1,1 - 57 = 161 (skill avg with attribute)
156 + 56 * 1,1 - 57 = 160 (skill avg if attribute affect only skill damage)
(156 + 56) * 1,1 - 57 = 176 (skill avg if attribute affect all damage)
I used an http://www.tosbase.com/database/monsters/47463/ for my tests Iâm lvl 50 now.
I got an avg of 161, the max damage i dealt was 171 wich matches exactly with my max damage, i couldnât get the min damage this is why my avg was higher. I made 30 attacks to get each value (with most machting my actual stats, except the last were i couldnât match my min attack)
Maybe all those results were just coincidence?
Maybe level diiference is a factor, but at close level this worked perfectly.
I will test it again once i get the attribute lvl 20 (i probably will be at lvl 51 when i get the money needed, but i suppose a single level will not have much impact)
Try when you get a level 75 weapon with some upgrades too. Besides the level 20+ attribute.
If you keep Thrust at level 1, but your base + weapon attack get much higher, it will be easier to see.
Just a question from someone who does not understand: are you saying that DEX is %? Like Evasion and Critical Rate? Iâm asking this because I was running a full DEX Archer in the start of the game and he wasnât able to crit everytime. I AM just asking, and sorry if I canât contribute more.
No. Critical (when hits) increase the damage dealt by 50%. If you have 100% critical, basically your damage is increased by 50%.
But Dex is only valuable at late game when you have hundreds, at lower level it doesnât have much impact on critical.
Let people get to lvl 400~600 before complaining it will go wrong.
Sorry, no. People canât even get that far yet, and by the time they can IMC will already have produced so much more content revolving around the current streamlined maths that turning back and reviewing the formulae will be all the more difficult.
give IMC some credit
But I do give them credit. Iâm not here because I hate the game, Iâm here because I love the game and I want to see it prosper. This isnât to be taken emotionally, this is objective criticism. The current damage formula is going to be a game-breaker for a lot people, myself included, if it isnât changed before launch. A lot of the current balancing complaints have to do with this. The sooner they get this out of the way the better.
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Thanks. Now I have two more questions:
- Critical Damage scales with STR, right? It would not be nice to have STR and DEX?
- Is there any Critical Resistence by status? If yes, which onew give it?
ok so then str was nerfed from last beta it used to give 2 thats good to know.
did you read this post carefully? he doesnt take into account monster def which actually climbs up very fast. this also does not account for skill cooldowns which seem short till you run an instance or fight a boss.
actually on top of this they added a stat scaleing by rank for int and str, you get 10% more per rank resulting in a whopping 380+ str compared to 250 something dex if you pump both of them to full