Tree of Savior Forum

Provide us SOME ways to trade 1:1 for transcended weapons?

General Discussion
#26

Avoiding all the rhetoric of who’s elitist and who’s a whale and what is doable and what is not, I am for directly trading transcended equipment between players. I don’t understand what is accomplished by the restrictions that currently exist, especially since you’re allowed to sell transcended items on the market. I guess these are some thought experiments I had trying to justify these trade restrictions.

  • Some argue that is deters RMT.
    Specifically that this prevents people from paying a player cash for a transcended weapon. I concede that it would make a direct trade of a transcended weapon for nothing rather inconvenient, but I don’t think it’s impossible. Why not ask the seller to put it up for cheap and then have the buyer carefully watch the market for it to show up? Okay, that’s risky. How about putting it up for a mid-range price that wouldn’t be easily bought up while giving the buyer a bit of a discount for the silver they’d spend to make it more secure. Or how about selling the buyer a bunch of silver through the market and then having them buy the transcended weapon at a normal price? That might take a bit of tax accounting, but a deal could probably be conceived. But then we have the problem of moving big amounts of silver by selling cheap things - that’s no good because it’d trip IMC’s automatic RMT detection on the market. How about trading over real high value items (like legendary cards) from the seller to buyer, buying it back for silver, then selling the transcended item for silver. Extremely convoluted, but it probably won’t trip IMC’s automatic RMT detection and uses prices that are high enough that no one could snipe the item during the transaction. Might take a bit of work, some trust, and a lot of accounting, but it’s probably still easier than farming a few months for a super upgraded and transcended weapon.

  • Keeping it all on the market makes it trackable! Even your super convoluted plots to avoid RMT detection involves the market at the end of the day so it’s still trackable!
    While it’s true that market transactions are trackable, so are direct trades. IMC should have logs of everything that happens. I’d be more surprised if they didn’t. After all, they were able to figure out how some player in kToS made a +40 Velcoffer pistol and verified how he was moving diamond anvils around. Ultimately this means that forcing transcended items to be moved around only on the market doesn’t make it any more trackable.

  • Making such big-value items market-only means that huge amounts of silver have to be moved around on the market. This results in big taxes to reduce in-game inflation.
    This is true, but it’s just stupid. Can’t we get other silver sinks? Isn’t Velcoffer supposed to be the big silver sink? I don’t think the benefits of having this silver sink are enough to justify giving players the freedom of moving items the way they want.

  • Letting players put it on the market gives newer players a chance at getting these strong equipment.
    And how would letting us directly trade transcended items not accomplish the same? For all intents and purposes, a lot players treat blessed shards like currency. Why can’t I trade my friend a transcended item for a ton of blessed shards? It accomplishes just as much as selling my transcended item for silver. Better yet, wouldn’t gifting my friends my old equipment bring up the playerbase even more?

Incidentally, I think whether or not getting trans 10 is easy is off topic. There are probably a lot of players with trans 6 or less temp or test weapons that they want to get rid of. Why can’t they directly exchange those for things other than silver?

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#27

This is an excellent silver sink in that it targets, more than any other type of player, the heavily geared and immensely rich whales.

#28

Inconvenience, in certain cases, deters activity that is against the Terms of Service. Make it difficult for people to sell their accounts, items for RL money and you will deter most people from doing it.

#29

I agree that inconvenience can be a deterrent, and ultimately this system is inconvenient. However, I don’t think this is particularly strong mechanism preventing RMT. In fact, RMT happened before transcended equipment was tradeable in any capacity, so whether or not transcended equipment is getting moved around by in RMT seems irrelevant.

Instead of trying to get a very particular completed item, an RMT buyer could probably just use buy the resources to make their super transcended equip. They could find the blessed shards and a highly enhanced weapon separately and those are things that can be directly traded to them. And that wouldn’t be so hard compared to the convoluted mess I was imagining earlier.

As for the seller, they could put their transcended item on the market, get their silver, and then use that to sell something else for cash. At the end of the day the RMT buyer and seller probably don’t care where their goods come from or go as long as they get what they want. The RMT buyer can buy power elsewhere. The RMT seller can get their cash elsewhere. I think these restrictions hurt normal players the most because they don’t have the resources ‘to go elsewhere’ when they want to do something like help out a specific friend.

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#30

All these actions help build up a case for the GMs to ban both the buyer and the seller. Anytime it is through the marketplace it can be monitored by them and investigated as a potential RMT, and now that IMC is actively investigating these things it actually means something.

1:1 trades are harder to build a case for RMT since the perps can simply claim they were ‘giving an item to a friend’ and there is no way to show otherwise.

Honestly - the impact would be minimal either way, just making sure my points are clear.

#31

This is a much bigger topic. But before we dive into that, I don’t think there are many MMOs that do not allow players to trade in-game currency, make traded items untradable without a “VIP membership”, make “upgraded weapons” untradable, prepay 1% for whatever you sell, and take 10% off of whatever you sell.

Name a game that does a combination of all these things above and still have bots running around every field map.

Quoting yourself:

So the 1:1 trade does not involve a 3rd party seller, then it shouldn’t be considered “RMT”. It’s impossible for anyone to prove whether or not a 1:1 trade involves real life cash.

Besides, I think this is completely off topic. A player can easily RMT silver from 3rd party gold seller and then proceed to buy transcended weapons from the market. If anything, preventing players to trade transcended weapon 1:1 would encourage RMT.

“No one is forcing anyone on how to play” , “It is an endgame goal it should take time”
You see how you are contradicting yourself? I am sure many people would like their friends not have to take the time to farm 100+ days to do legend raids / end game content together. You are enforcing that “if you want to do these content you need to take the time to farm”.

I don’t feel miserable playing the game, I said you are trying to make other casual players miserable.

So did you RMT or did you farm “3,4,5+ hours” for your easy trans 10? Which one is it? Care to show your TOS hours via steam?

I guess 3,4,5+ hours isn’t really all day huh?

No doubt it’s easy for you to get a stage 10. Unfortunately you don’t represent the general population of the game.

…Or stop trying to justify this bullshit and encourage players to quit the game.

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#32

Exactly. Completely irrelevant. What a classic whale/elitist would do is to tell you that “it’s your problem to not be able to farm silver as effective as I did. You need to put in the time to farm”.

But the problem really is about this stupid restrictions hurting normal players.

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#33

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3 hours, with DPK involved.
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These are from adventure journal from when we had access to these data, kind of miss these, I ended up having over 600 of each:
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Farming was pretty chill, I would be listening to music and watching some twitch stream while farming, else it’d get boring in the long run.

Once rank 9 came I didn’t have much drive in me to farm, so I did Saalus 33 times every day when they gave 3 shards per character. Gave me 5 million raw silver alone per day, plus the shards I sell on the AH. Also, during those times, I was busy with university (now graduated with masters). You’re right, I’m one of the small demographic, but this is the only game I play (now playing MS2 with the guildies), so there is no excuse for me to be poor and complain. I also get burnt out on the farm, but I had many other ways of making money back then besides farming and Saalus, which, ultimately, got nerfed by IMC as time went on. This is one of them.

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Note that the first screenshot is from early as june 2016, when prices were 7.2m, when reincarnate did not have a debuff on mobs when we killed them and we were the ones controlling the BB market, not even the bots could get a BB because we did sessions during the morning and in the night, so they were feeding us the DPK during that time. It was impossible to get a BB in a short amount of time due to the fact that galoks had a 3 minute spawn timer and only 3 were on the map, unless people did it our way (CNL caught on and did the same later on).

EDIT: forgot to mention that on those 3 hour session, I would see more than 5 gold mobs and tons of silver mobs, and yes, they were swelled for those juicy 1.4m silver gains. :slight_smile:

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#34

IMC is choosing to take a direct stance against RMT, and honestly they are the 1st MMO company I have seen that are actually trying to make as RMT-free an environment as possible. You are right, most MMOs allow rampant RMT and don’t do anything about it, I wish they would follow IMC’s example.

Thats the problem with 1:1 trade, there is no accountability. Props to IMC for actually trying something. And no, they can’t easily RMT from 3rd party in this game, since it has to be through the marketplace and they can track those transactions and then ban both the buyer and the seller. It is very risky.

He doesn’t need to farm, you can trade him a base weapon, and you can trade him shards/gems to transcend it if you so desire. You can clear all content in this game with +11 primus 350s, it is easy.

Also, the new player items make getting to max level in this game a breeze.

Everyone will quit about something, not being able to trade transcendent weapons 1:1 is a small factor compared to all the other ■■■■ that IMC should be focusing on. Thank goodness they are instead of focusing on this.

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#35

So the conclusion is, yes you farmed all day. 7000 hours is ■■■■■■■ crazy and 33 saalus character is just … jesus ■■■■. Everything you said makes sense, the math adds up. But it also reinforces what I said.

I don’t know what your stance here is. Clearly you are the definition of an “elitist” who devoted 7000 hours of your life to this MMO. Now I am not trying to be disrespectful and call you a no-life, but 3-5 hours a day with 30+ saalus characters for months is NOT easy, NOT normal, and definitely NOT “the only right way” to play the game.

Players should be able to enjoy this game without putting thousands of hours into it.

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#36

More like around 2-3k of farming, I’ve been sitting in town for thousands of hours, already.

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#37

AND YET, we have had Bots running around every field map since day 1. How exactly did IMC achieve a RMT free environment?

Answer is No, they didn’t, and they fked up big time with all these crazy restrictions that hurt players instead of the bots. You think they are doing the right thing, but did they really?

https://steamcharts.com/app/372000

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Our all time peak was 53,277 back in 2016, now we have 1300 people left playing…

In two years TOS dropped 97% of it’s playerbase. Did you really think IMC did a good job and other games should “follow IMC’s example”? Do you really think the game will survive with another two years of plummet?

We already had a server merge (this happens when both servers are dying). What’s next?

Props to IMC to fk up their playerbase. And as of the moment there are still tons of silver selling ads, bots running around field maps, and 1m Arrow on the market.

Accountability comes when the game provides a friendly environment for players to thrive, instead of layers of silver sinks/rng/restrictions/gach/bugs/add-on abuses.

I feel like we just went through a circle to come back to this. Ya sure i can trade him a base weapon and then trade him shards/gems and let the weapon that I no longer use/willing to give mold in the storage.

Then you are going to tell me that I can sell it on the market and buy him something else.
I think we can move on from this, I feel like talking to a stone.

Baby steps. Initially IMC wouldn’t allow transcended weapons to be shared via storage. This should be the next step. They are already working on revamping their stupid garbage token trading system anyway.

One thing I should remind you is the game is pretty dead, at least to the NA population.

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#38

Sureeee

In 3000 hours most people can get a 4 years degree, learn a second language, and make hundreds of thousands of dollars…

You can invest your own time here, props to you for all your achievements in this game. Just don’t assume that other players can “easily” spend 1/10 of what you spent in this game.

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#39

Okay, what’s your point? “Most” people can do the same thing I’m doing. Years ago I played with a guy that was #1 on the leaderboards on a game, while he was going for his Chemistry PhD. While I was in uni on my 5-year program, I played this game and also studied my uni course materials on my free time. I’ve been pretty lazy since rank 9 and sat in town most of the time while applying myself in uni. I don’t think I need to learn a 3rd language :thinking:

They can. It’s an MMO, find ways to earn silver as efficiently as possible. Once rank 9 came, all I did was saalus and I just chilled in town, doesn’t even take 2 hours to do all my characters. Alts are pretty easy, especially since we get thrown with exp buffs everywhere to level alts to 240 in less than 3 hours. (level up chest was too good.)

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#40

We have plenty of xp events and you can rank top 100 in adventure journal for rewards without much efforts, playing with others you make saalus runs 4 3 minutes.
One of the best way to make silver is roll the usualinquimeme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVczIZqgGm8 now we even see some soloing challenge 7 in rank 10 already.
If you are weak you still get mats, cubes, items and 700 000 more or less silvers alone, when you are geared enough stage 6 is 850 000 more or less and 10% blesses shards for elites etc…
My stats are 100 dex ( 1 monstrance make hit 2 times per second) full con, cafrisun, the usual mace that passed down between alts in team storage and cleric1krivis3chaplaininquisitor1, I needed less than 24 hours to have that char.

When gear up event appeared and before players farmed 360 raid I bought all challenges reset 320 000 from market and made insane profit + sold 1 000 000 raid stones crafted x hundreds before price went down to -80%.

I’m saying there are lot and some obvious ways of making silver you smithfashion just don’t seem to manage your time in game in an efficient way.
As for players having thousands of hour play you can add the sp potions taking forever, or just normal players afk and chilling in guild chat.

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#41

Casuals either don’t have that choice or choose to not to spend the time playing.

To put it in terms the current generation can understand, it’s usually the casuals who spout “AINT NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT” and just quit anyway.

Just for the sake of argument, I also got my degree while holding down a job, and finished college with no debt and a job waiting for me. I also played Ragnarok Online during most of my spare time.

That’s a conscious choice on my part. It requires those things called “time management” and “prioritization”. Assuming you actually have the choice to dedicate time to play ToS, there is literally nobody except you to make said choice to put in the time.

Of course, the underlying assumption is that you know that this is a traditional Korean MMO grinder, and that these types of games require thousands of hours. Without knowing that, you’re in for a big surprise.

And none of that has anything to do with the original topic.

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I’m not particularly against the idea, especially since I was recently inconvenienced by this exact issue. However, it invites RMT because now I can just sell off Trans10 weapons under the pretense that “I’m giving it to a friend”. There are actually businesses that cater to third party transactions like these, and I wouldn’t be surprised if ToS accounts were being “sold” there, given how “dead” the game is.

While most people think “bots” when they hear RMT, you have to remember: RMT is when money changes hands for something in game, and IMC doesn’t get any of it.

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#42

I would like for a way to trade trans gear, it would be useful to trade gear for guildmates…

Now, for the part of potential RMT…
Welp… its currently going with velcoffer gear… and theres very little that imc can do about it…

Most of the negotiations happen outside the game, and the only thing that goes recorded in the game is the trade itself… So i really dont know how they can counter that…

**I have been offered a velco gear for an absurd amount of silver ingame, or 80 dollars ±, sadly it was on discord and i was told that discord proof isnt that good… Also one ex-guildmate also got offered a similar deal ingame, dunno if he send a ticket…

#43

The game isn’t dead because of a lack of 1:1 trade of transcendent weapons - that is the least of IMC’s concerns.

The game is dying because of a lack of quality content - garbage servers that can’t handle a 10 v 10 GTW - terrible PVP content with bad rewards - Gacha system that NA players generally despise because it is exploitative - terrible balance issues - boring world bosses that take 2 hours, etc

All this takes supreme priority over one marginal Quality of Life buff, that also has downsides. If I were IMC this would be bottom of the barrel priority.

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#44

How I manage my time in this game is purely subjective AND irrelevant to the topic being discussed here. I also don’t give a ■■■■ to how you make silver in this game or how effective you feel your methods are. Nobody ever asked, but I thank you for telling me that you can farm with a meme chap /s

Just in case you didn’t know, the whole point of this thread is “not being able to trade a transcended weapon to a designated person”.

This is not a thread crying to IMC that “silver is so hard to make”, this is a request to IMC that they need to stop these crazy restrictions because these so-called “RMT” deterrents they have imposed over the past two years have completely failed.

#45

This whole “invite RMT” reason just sounds absurd in so many levels.

  1. In order to trade, you need a token on both parties

  2. Bots do not buy token nor do they transcend their weapons. Therefore a transcended weapon is mostly coming from a legitimate source (not a bot silver seller)

  3. You could theoretically “buy a clean +21 velcoffer weapon” with real life cash, then transcend it later after the trade. As of this moment, what really matters in this game is the Anvil enhance number of your weapon, NOT transcend level. Why do you think diamond anvil costs 100m each now? If players truly want to RMT their weapons, they simply do not transcend it.

  4. What destroys the in-game economy is silver farmed by bots, not 1:1 trade. It makes 0 sense for a 3rd party business to sell transcended weapons in this game for profit. Why? Because it requires a ton of labor, and you actually need to play the game to obtain the recipes, the mats, the shards and the silver to do so. Also considering the pathetic amount of players who are left playing in this game, why wouldn’t the 3rd party allocate their resources into more popular games?

  5. You can sell your transcended weapon on the market now. IMC gets nothing out of it as well (in game currency does not actually bring them any revenue).

Also to your point of “IMC not getting a cut on the trade”, this itself is ridiculous and is exactly why TOS is so dead. Why does IMC need to get something out of the game when “money changes hands”? Trading with friends, sharing gears/mats is the very basic feature that every MMO has. IMC already forces users to pay a VIP membership just in order to “trade 30 times”, and they require BOTH PARTIES to pay.

IMC can also easily put up a TP item to “unlock” a transcended weapon. THAT is how IMC get a cut out of the transaction.

Not this reason alone for sure, but definitely part of the reasons. There’s a reason why they are revamping the token (not sure how it will turn out eventually but perhaps we can finally trade for free).

Why do you think they put up the new player events? Because they couldn’t attract new players. Even if they do occasionally get new players , they can’t retain them. Do you know how many new players quit after their first week of the game? Well, as soon as they find out that without a token they pretty much can’t get anything from anyone, not even their own alts. 1 market listing, 30% commission fee, no team storage, no trading without making things untradable. Most of these like you said were supposed to deter RMT, but the truth is we have had heavy bots/silver ads spam since day 1. Garbage performance aside, tree of restriction is definitely the top 3 reasons.

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