P2W Model Prevents People From Playing & Enjoying The Game

[yakoplee94]

There are better alternatives than magic scrolls and other RNG based cash shop items.

It’s obvious that IMC needs money to survive and continue their service. But there are better alternatives than pissing the community off with a “chance” to get something good. There should be a direct benefit for any service we pay. Not a chance to get it.

Magic scrolls can be obtained in-game

At a chance. Statistically speaking, anything below 0.5% is considered insignificant. If the drop rate for magic scrolls are 0.01%, then we can see that it barely makes a difference that it can be dropped in game or not.

[yakoplee94]

What do f2p users contribute to ToS?

• Free advertisement to fellow friends, families, and other peers.
• Larger community to give a MMO feel.
• Knowledge spillovers from
  • Stressing the server with a larger population
  • Finding more bugs
  • Creating guides and websites like wikia.
• Potentially can become a paying user in the future.

Of course, these benefits are not just exclusive to f2p users. But, free users have more time to play Tree of Savior and than paying users. Most paying users do not have time or leisure to enjoy a game for an extended period of time. They have jobs and need to work. When they come back after working, they might be at best able to enjoy ToS for few hours before going to sleep. Knowledge spillovers actually benefits paying users the most because it helps them save time. They do not have to do the grunt work to find such knowledge. Theory crafting, wikias, number crunching, etc… are all things that are time consuming. Without free users, it would take a longer time for any of this to be established. This is why it’s important to have a good balance of both.

[black_light]

To begin with, in a cash shop oriented game there is no freeloader, only potential buyers. Its f2p because everyone can join the party, but you have to buy your own drinks. Thats the thing.

[CookyKim]

I really love how you like to pick certain points in my post and reply to a small portion of it.

I wasn’t going to reply to parts of your argument where it was already answered in a previous post. It doesn’t make sense for me to argue things over and over again. The thread has encountered this:

Magic scrolls can be obtained in-game.

many time and have given its consensus:

Magic Scrolls drop from dungeons with 0.0001% chance. 2 runs per day. I know people who have played for 6 months in kTOS and in their guild only one person has ever gotten one as a drop.

Bosses have a chance to drop magic scrolls.You also get a chance to get a perfectly rolled headgear :3You might end up spending many hours and thousands of dollars, but you still have a chance (it’s an illusion).

Yes. At 0.000001%.

I might as well buy a lottery ticket and expect to win something.

Also keep derailing the argument at hand, that won’t save you from your internally inconsistent claim that:

People. Do. Not. Realise. How. Much. Of. A. Small. Impact. These. Stats. Actually. Have. In. Game. They. Simply. Think. w0w. Stats. On. Something. That. Didn’t. Originally. Have. Stats. = OP. There’s. A. List. Of. What. Stats. And. The. Max. Stats. The. Hat. Can. Give.

which I have already proven wrong. Repeating your claim without valid support to your argument doesn’t make it more true / convincing.

For people late to the show, the proof started from post #189.

[black_light]

You are trying to convert his argument tho, which is fallacious.
You have an issue with these stats, he said they do not matter, you now say that then it wont bother anyone if they are removed, however this does not resolve the question on your side that why would you want them removed in the first place.
The burden of proof still rests with you because you started up the claim that these items are damaging and should be removed.

Finally: The abuse of the term P2W should stop. Either learn what the flying **** the term means, or stop using it altogether.
If you can outdo a cash shop item with any in game obtainable gear, then your claim wont hold and is reduced to “im bothered by the fact that other people progress quicker than i do”, and jolly gee hammocks guess what: Nobody gives a damn.

Feel free to correct me anywhere you see fit. I havent read through 320 posts nor do i intend to, so it would be appreciated to create a summary of the topic both pro and contra.

[CookyKim]

You are trying to convert his argument tho, which is fallacious.

Convert? Quote where I “converted” his argument? In a debate please always support your claim with evidence or it becomes a false accusation.

You have an issue with these stats, he said they do not matter, you now say that then it wont bother anyone if they are removed, however this does not resolve the question on your side that why would you want them removed in the first place.

Because… the reason is in the title of the thread? Do I really have to state the obvious every time I post?

Finally: The abuse of the term P2W should stop. Either learn what the flying **** the term means, or stop using it altogether.

Sorry it’s a problem with terms with loose definitions. I can’t help you deal with ambiguous terms.

If you can outdo a cash shop item with any in game obtainable gear, then your claim wont hold and is reduced to “im bothered by the fact that other people progress quicker than i do”, and jolly gee hammocks guess what: Nobody gives a damn.

Correct. But now the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of such “in game items that outdo cash shop item”.

Feel free to correct me anywhere you see fit. I havent read through 320 posts nor do i intend to, so it would be appreciated to create a summary of the topic both pro and contra.

Summary post#246

[black_light]

I’ve read this post of yours:

…

Your standpoint seemed fallacious to me on occasions such as:

• “Acceptable to you, perhaps.” Your opinions have equal weight. There is literally no weight to the implication that he is okay with something and you are not.
• “The threat of a worse P2W feature should not be a justification for a lesser P2W feature.” Bashing something on the basis of a possibility… this is not even an argument.
• "If they are so insignificant why were they included as a feature of the item in the first place? Why not just sell plain cosmetics without stats? " This is your conversion attempt of his argument. If its insignificant, why could we not have it removed?
• etc. If you want i can list all problems with your arguments.

Because… the reason is in the title of the thread? Do I really have to state the obvious every time I post?

The title literally states that this system prevents people from enjoying the game. Its a claim without a proof to it. The forum is full with entitled whining children who cant even grasp the concept of P2W.
Colour me 30 shades of skeptical, especially when both sides are firing up the argument that these stats dont really matter. Just try and focus on the amount of irony in that fact.

Sorry it’s a problem with terms with loose definitions. I can’t help you deal with ambiguous terms.

Nothing ambigious about it. If its something you cannot hope to attain in game, its P2W. If you can make the equal of it, or better just by playing the game, then its not.
Everything outside of this circle is just pampered children mumbling mentally challenged and unhinged crap about how they are not in the focus of attention because someone may progress faster than them and thus steal spotlight.

[quote=“CookyKim, post:328, topic:153090”]
Correct. But now the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of such “in game items that outdo cash shop item”.[/quote]
Thats not an unreasonable request but it backfires on you really hard.
If you dont know what can and cannot be obtained in game, how and why are you calling shop items p2w?
If we have consensus on the fact that we do not know, then the next logical step would be probably not making up **** threads about it with unhinged claims such as the shop of a not even yet running game will prevent all players from enjoying the game.

Summary post#246

The summary post lost me at this point:

Why are we making so many assumptions?Rather than letting the problem happen, it’s best to prevent it. We have to make these assumptions because it did not happen yet but is likely to happen.

So we are having our drama time with nearly 350 posts about some issue that may or may not exist.

[CookyKim]

“Acceptable to you, perhaps.” Your opinions have equal weight. There is literally no weight to the implication that he is okay with something and you are not.

You’re taking my comments out of context.

The original context:

If they changed that, we might find ourselves into more disgusting features.

Acceptable to you, perhaps. But it doesn’t reduce the fact the stats on the headgear were Cash shop exclusive. Stats on cash shop exclusives is generally perceived as P2W.

He made an opinion (actually a conjecture), which I responded with my opinion. I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

“The threat of a worse P2W feature should not be a justification for a lesser P2W feature.” Bashing something on the basis of a possibility… this is not even an argument.

Obviously it’s not an argument, it’s my opinion. (i.e. I used the word “should not” rather than “is not”)

"If they are so insignificant why were they included as a feature of the item in the first place? Why not just sell plain cosmetics without stats? " This is your conversion attempt of his argument. If its insignificant, why could we not have it removed?

It wasn’t even his argument, I made that argument. I didn’t take his argument and twisted it into something to suit my perspective. I made a logical extension that if something is claimed to be so insignificant, its existence or not should also be insignificant. And since he has not provided reason to keep it in, and I have provided reason to have it removed, his case actually argues for the removal of the stat.

The title literally states that this system prevents people from enjoying the game. Its a claim without a proof to it. The forum is full with entitled whining children who cant even grasp the concept of P2W.

Then you have not opened your mind to the arguments that doesn’t share your point of view. And I can only attribute that to bias.

Colour me 30 shades of skeptical, especially when both sides are firing up the argument that these stats dont really matter. Just try and focus on the amount of irony in that fact.

I don’t know what this means.[quote=“black_light, post:329, topic:153090”]
Nothing ambigious about it. If its something you cannot hope to attain in game, its P2W. If you can make the equal of it, or better just by playing the game, then its not.
[/quote]

That is your definition, it may be shared by the part of the community or not.

Everything outside of this circle is just pampered children mumbling mentally challenged and unhinged crap about how they are not in the focus of attention because someone may progress faster than them and thus steal spotlight.

And that is your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion. I have no say to it.

Thats not an unreasonable request

Request not fulfilled. Argument assumed to be false accusation / claim without proof.

The summary post lost me at this point:

Discrediting a whole summary post just because of your opinion reflects more on your integrity than otherwise.

---

Your intent seems to be to discredit me. I don’t know why you wouldn’t just provide your counter points to said arguments but to choose to discredit me:

Your standpoint seemed fallacious

If you want i can list all problems with your arguments.

List them all and I will explain my reasons to my claim / opinions. Unlike some, I don’t make claims without proof / support.

I’d just caution that you’re edging real close to Ad Hominem attacks though. Please stick to arguments directing to the original topic.

[black_light]

Then you have not opened your mind to the arguments that doesn’t share your point of view. And I can only attribute that to bias.

Requiring proof is not opening my mind to arguments that do not share my… point of view…? When i said entitled children i referred to the perfectly real and valid mass of people who have no idea what they are talking about, but go ahead and still attack it on the notion that someone might somehow outdo them in something.
My “POINT OF VIEW” is that something/maybe^3 are not valid points. You can communicate your doubts and opinions, im not against that, but i think you can figure the difference between that and creating drama threads with outright claims that game is ruined by said items.

I don’t know what this means.

It simply means that we are sitting in a thread about how bad shop items are and both pro and contra parties fired up the argument that they dont even matter. It wont get any more retarded than that.

That is your definition, it may be shared by the part of the community or not.

Thats about as amusing as asking for consensus on 1+1=2 because you know… there might be people who think otherwise.

Request not fulfilled. Argument assumed to be false accusation / claim without proof.

Then let me guide you step by step:
a.) Your side claims that shop items are p2w and ruin gameplay
b.) I requested proof that said items are indeed better than anything obtainable in game
c.) Admission on your side that you have no idea whether or not they are and then attempt to push the burden of proof on me, saying that if i disagree with the claim that these items are p2w and ruin the game, i should be the one to prove that they are not
Conclusively:

• You admit that you have no idea whether or not said items are p2w, thus
• drama about it is completely without basis, but for the giggles you
• attempt to push the burden of proof on me

So please rethink how my “claim” is false accusation / claim without proof.
We are still at square A. Prove that said items are p2w and damaging.

Discrediting a whole summary post just because of your opinion reflects more on your integrity than otherwise.

The post literally admits to not address real/actual issues, but ones that MAY/COULD potentially happen. This is in clear contrast to the topic’s title which states for a fact that these items will prevent people from enjoying the game.
As for reflection on my integrity… well… this hardly makes any sense to me with all the contradictions you have going on here. Im not the one making random claims about problems which dont even exist, on the basis of non-existing information with a lack of proof.
You might wish to measure the integrity of your own opinion before attempting it on the opposition.

Unlike some, I don’t make claims without proof / support.

Except… you know… you literally did just that… pretty much the textbook definition of it.

[CookyKim]

When i said entitled children i referred to the perfectly real and valid mass of people who have no idea what they are talking about, but go ahead and still attack it on the notion that someone might somehow outdo them in something.

I’m sorry I read this 3 x I don’t know what it means.

My “POINT OF VIEW” is that something/maybe^3 are not valid points. You can communicate your doubts and opinions, im not against that,

I don’t know what this means too.

but i think you can figure the difference between that and creating drama threads with outright claims that game is ruined by said items.

Whether this is a drama thread or not is an opinion, not an argument about the original topic. Like I said before, you are entitled to your own opinion, I have no say in that.

Thats about as amusing as asking for consensus on 1+1=2 because you know… there might be people who think otherwise.

And that’s your best response to the claim that your definition of P2W is the only acceptable definition of P2W? My claim is that different people have different ideas what is P2W to them.

1 + 1 = 2 is not an opinion / definition of a concept. It is a mathematical logic.

Then let me guide you step by step:

Request still not fulfilled.

) I requested proof that said items are indeed better than anything obtainable in game

I cannot prove if something doesn’t exist (i.e. more powerful in game item doesn’t exist). I can only prove that something does. You’re asking for the impossible.

Admission on your side that you have no idea whether or not they are

Prove that this is what I admitted, quote it.

You admit that you have no idea whether or not said items are p2w, thus

False

drama about it is completely without basis, but for the giggles you

Your opinion.

attempt to push the burden of proof on me

Thats not an unreasonable request

The post literally admits to not address real/actual issues, but ones that MAY/COULD potentially happen.

There are real issues in Magic scroll and Token move speed. Which are examples for the original title of the topic.

that these items will prevent people from enjoying the game.

Wrong. The title of the topic is:

P2W Model Prevents People From Playing & Enjoying The Game

all the contradictions you have going on here

Prove the contradictions. You’re again making claims without evidence.

Except… you know… you literally did just that… pretty much the textbook definition of it.

Not a single point in your post has been about the topic.

I’d just caution that you’re edging real close to Ad Hominem attacks though. Please stick to arguments directing to the original topic.

If the only points you have towards this topic is against me, then I have to kindly flag your posts and invite our lovely moderator @staff_julie to remove these useless personal arguments.

[lancelyn91]

As soon as this game becomes absurdly P2W, I won’t hesitate to stop playing for good. I’m done supporting game companies that choose this path.

Players should vote with their wallets. Simply do not support the P2W items in the cash shop, don’t even think about buying “just one to see if I’m lucky”. If people have the mentality to spend “just a few $” on P2W items, they’re still supporting the game developers to continue adding more potent P2W items.

I don’t mind spending 15$ on a costume I know I will enjoy wearing. That’s the kind of mentality people should have - support the game developers by buying cosmetic items, not gambling away money to get stronger in-game.

[Addiktion]

Mama mia, I’m donezo.

Feel free to quit the game if you want to cry so much. I’d prefer this whole thread to just get locked, we’re literally achieving nothing here, it’s become a clone P2W thread.

I’m also looking at the Mega Poll thread and the results regarding the “P2W” hats are actually pretty balanced, surprisingly.

[lancelyn91]

I guess you’re the type of person who refers to concerns about a game being ruined by escalating levels of P2W bullshit, simply as “crying”?

[NurioMarayana]

Yeah, I am getting a bit sick and tired of complaints and concerns being brushed off and belittled by calling it “crying”

[black_light]

Whether this is a drama thread or not is an opinion, not an argument about the original topic. Like I said before, you are entitled to your own opinion, I have no say in that.

The original topic is about less than an opinion. Its about made up ****. Ironically thats not an opinion. Its a fact admitted by even those who who want “p2w” items removed.

And that’s your best response to the claim that your definition of P2W is the only acceptable definition of P2W? My claim is that different people have different ideas what is P2W to them.
1 + 1 = 2 is not an opinion / definition of a concept. It is a mathematical logic.

Sorry, if you think definitions are something you can randomly add **** to, even which contradicts the original meaning of the term, then i cant really argue with you.
Pay to win has a clear definition. It literally means to buy yourself an advantage. If what you buy does not secure an advantage for you, then there is no pay to win involved.

Saying that this is only my definition undermines and questions your own rationality.

I cannot prove if something doesn’t exist

Oh? You cannot prove something that does not exist, but you can bit** and moan about it?
Makes perfect sense doesnt it? Just like this thread and the argument that the items that dont even exist yet and nobody has an idea about, will be inferior to cash shop items.

Prove that this is what I admitted, quote it.

If you can outdo a cash shop item with any in game obtainable gear, then your claim wont hold and is reduced to “im bothered by the fact that other people progress quicker than i do”, and jolly gee hammocks guess what: Nobody gives a damn.

Correct. But now the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of such “in game items that outdo cash shop item”.

Also quoting from the summary post:

Why are we making so many assumptions?
Rather than letting the problem happen, it’s best to prevent it. We have to make these assumptions because it did not happen yet but is likely to happen.

There are real issues in Magic scroll and Token move speed. Which are examples for the original title of the topic.

Then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that these items provide an unfair advantage over those who do not pay. In fact so much that it pretty much secures the win for them.

Wrong. The title of the topic is:

At times i seriously think you cannot understand english.
In your opinion the sentence: “P2W Model Prevents People From Playing & Enjoying The Game” does not mean “that these (p2w) items will prevent people from enjoying the game.”

Prove the contradictions. You’re again making claims without evidence.

Strike 2 on not understanding english

Not a single point in your post has been about the topic.

Strike 3 on not being able to read/comprehend english.
At this point i even agree with you. For someone who has dyslexia probably nothing i have said is related to the topic.
Accept my honest condolences.

If the only points you have towards this topic is against me, then I have to kindly flag your posts and invite our lovely moderator @staff_julie to remove these useless personal arguments.

Please do, but dont forget to ask @staff_julie to sort you out as well, since at this point what you are doing is simple trolling by means of playing stupid.
Not to mention the fact that you are doing this in a thread clearly made for screwing with the community, based on false claims.
Its nothing short of intentionally inciting a flame war.

[black_light]

I guess you’re the type of person who refers to concerns about a game being ruined by escalating levels of P2W bullshit, simply as “crying”?

There is a difference between having concerns or offering an opinion and creating a thread which is literally named: P2W Model Prevents People From Playing & Enjoying The Game

It kinda hurts your point when the people who agree with you cant even understand the basic principle of p2w, nor have any idea otherwise what they are complaining about since the game is not out yet and they cant really compare items.

Yeah, I am getting a bit sick and tired of complaints and concerns being brushed off and belittled by calling it “crying”

See above…

Concerns are understandable.
Crying p2w and making random claims left and right with barely a basis to them… not so much.

[CookyKim]

and creating drama threads

Whether this is a drama thread or not is an opinion

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Its about made up ****.

I believe we are talking about how P2W model is detrimental.

if you think definitions are something you can randomly add **** to

Quote the proof to this claim.

Pay to win has a clear definition. It literally means to buy yourself an advantage.

The problem is what is considered buy and what is considered advantage varies from person to person. Which is why it is ambiguous.

but you can bit** and moan about it?

Seems like only you are. I’m only providing arguments about the topic, and defending my arguments only.

---

If you can outdo a cash shop item with any in game obtainable gear

then your claim wont hold

Correct.

Admission on your side that you have no idea whether or not they are

Nope I didn’t, you’re wrong. I admitted that IF, you can outdo a cash shop item with in game gear, then the claim (P2W) won’t hold.

Now you truly are:

You are trying to convert his argument tho, which is fallacious.

---

P2W Model

(p2w) items

At times i seriously think you cannot understand english.

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Strike 2 on not understanding english

Ad Hominem attacks

Strike 3 on not being able to read/comprehend english.

Ad Hominem attacks

For someone who has dyslexia

Ad Hominem attacks

Also:

Colour me 30 shades of skeptical, especially when both sides are firing up the argument that these stats dont really matter. Just try and focus on the amount of irony in that fact.

Requiring proof is not opening my mind to arguments that do not share my… point of view…? When i said entitled children i referred to the perfectly real and valid mass of people who have no idea what they are talking about, but go ahead and still attack it on the notion that someone might somehow outdo them in something.

My “POINT OF VIEW” is that something/maybe^3 are not valid points. You can communicate your doubts and opinions, im not against that

At times i seriously think you cannot understand english.

Yea me too.

---

Its nothing short of intentionally inciting a flame war.

what you are doing is simple trolling

based on false claims.

That’s you. That was your intention all along getting into this thread, to start a personal argument war against me. And not to discuss the actual topic at hand.

[ariawynn]

There’s also a certain stigma in the US when buying prepaid game credit cards, especially when Nexon had really goofy looking NX cards and for games traditionally deemed to be “uncool”, like RuneScape.

[noilid]

Can we just like, not complain about this stuff until we ACTUALLY play the game? Can we hold this off until we actually test this stuff?

[chronosanct]

I just have flashbacks to the ArchAge fiasco… do you remember what happened there?

I would just argue that people are not being nearly loud enough about what a ■■■■storm it will be if certain legitimate fears we have turn out to be true come launch time. By then, it will be nearly too late to change things… So best to let them know now and really pray they’re listening extra carefully.