Hi @Jintello ! Please kindly watch your words 
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Which is still a third party resource since we are playing iTOS.
Common sense dictates, that if you were to ask around in a circle that has people with similar interests, you would getâŚa lot of similarities.
You were assuming that no 20s, 30s, 40s or anyone else over the age of a teen played RO. Or that those above a certain age automatically have no time for games.
Thatâs projecting.
I donât understand what you mean with this. What do you base this on?
Thatâs nice, but off-topic.
I think you might get some surprising answers out of that question.
ââmy situation always represents the situation of everyone elseââ certainly is not the answer, however.
I remember playing an online game roughly 15 years ago, and it turned out the majority of the players were not just 20+, but also 30/40+.
This was an adventure/shooter M2P game. âkidsâ have never been the only ones to game. You really think gaming systems were only bought for children, and not secretly for the parents themselves (as well)?
Just like magic, logic isnt some word you can randomly throw around to make sense out of things.
Personal experience, again. Altho interestingly enough this time you raised the age limit by roughly 10 years, why?
In the next example old will be 35+?
I still have no idea. You seem to believe I have little experience with the game for some weird reason.
Underperforming is in your mind only. It is as simple as that. Because it implies that you have some kind of performance to uphold, which you dont?
If it does not help this implies you already have a seriously easy time leveling as it is. In which case I have to ask? What is the problem with rerolling a new character?
Thatâs not twinking, thatâs: ââfree level boostsââ or ââpowerlevelingââ
Well you brought it up, Iâm all for discussing it.
Then explain why they suck, as was my original question.
No, they have listened too much, to the majority.
Instead of trying to create something more solid for a specific target audience, a game with specific strengths that appeal to them.
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Wikipedia has this to say about your post; âA straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponentâs argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.â
I donât see many people on the forum asking for an easy way to reset circles, yet I see a great many people trying to argue against easy circle resets. Itâs very strange.
I was typing a reply to another post in another thread, but I think Iâll post it here instead as this thread is more relevantâŚ
Wrong. If it doesnât happen, everyone will be using cookie cutter builds for fear of ending up with a sub-optimal class combination and no way to change it. Being unable to make alterations to your build in the future will lead to uniformity as most players will simply go for what works best. Circle reset, with suitable restrictions and cooldowns to avoid abuse, will lead to experimentation and diversity. Which of the two is preferable to you?
Circle reset is good for the vast majority of players, as it promotes trying out different builds without fear of having all your time investment eventually flushed down the toilet by a future patch or maybe just a simple realization that your class does not work the way you expected it to. This game is far from finished and information on some classes and skills is incredibly hard or even impossible to come by.
Circle reset is also good for class balance. If people are not stuck with unalterable characters, the developers have more freedom to pursue balance. Case in point would be the current kToS situation where the devs are afraid to nerf Highlanders because too many people flocked to that class with the Skyliner overbuff and would probably leave the game if it were to be nerfed now. So instead they are buffing Barbarians, further enlarging the discrepancy between kToS and iToS. There really should not be any discrepancy at all to begin with and I believe the lack of a circle reset option is the culprit here. With a way to change up your build to better adjust to future balance patches, those balance patches can be much more substantial and daring. Or do we really want the developers to be too scared to even attempt to properly balance the game?
Somewhat ironically, itâs poor balance that ultimately leads to cookie cutter builds, while good balance promotes build diversity, so all those people who are against circle reset because they claim it would lead to more of them are either unintentionally working against themselves or they are hypocrites with ulterior motives. I suspect thereâs quite a few people in both of those camps.
And lastly, circle reset is good for IMC and the gameâs longevity. Implementing it may drive away a few dozen players that are too strongly opposed to the idea, for one reason or another, and anger a few dozen more that will stay regardless, but not implementing it will drive away hundreds and eventually kill the game. Casual players, which form the majority of the playerbase in every financially viable game I know of, will not bother rerolling a lvl 280+ character. Some will keep playing even if a patch butchers their build, but they wonât be very happy about it. And many will simply quit the game. So if you want this game to shut down in one yearâs time due to lack of players, by all means continue campaigning against circle reset. I personally canât wait for all the short-sighted people who are now opposed to it to realize, once we get lvl 600 cap, that they perhaps donât want to spend a thousand hours on rerolling their characters after all and will take to the forums and cry for a circle reset because a patch or a new class made their build obsolete and they suddenly figured out that 1k hours is a whole lot more than the 200 hours required to reroll a character right now.
Circle reset is only bad for a handful of hardcore players with too much time on their hands that take pride in min/maxing their builds, donât mind rerolling high level characters and want the general population to stay as far behind them in build efficiency as possible.
So can we please stop arguing about whether to implement circle reset and start arguing about how to implement it in a way that will prevent abuse and exploitation of the system? Thanks.
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and what is the iTOS in game description for burrow?
/facepalm
I actually give up trying to get an actual reason for âwhy reset would kill the game, other than; because I said soâ.
circle reset is good for the players, as it is also good to have an item that moves you to circle 7 saving you the effort level up, but itâs bad for game turn a special game to a generic game
I am with you on the devs in general listen to the general population too much. Games suck because they are not as iterative as one would hope after 10 years of gaming. I didnât mean they should listen to XYZ I meant exclusively to look back at other games and check what failed and what didnât. Maybe they start hiring consultants that gamed hundreds of games to help them avoid critical oversights.
Most of the MMOs I start playing fail miserable in one of these categories and thus not learning from previous mistakes:
Problems with damage scaling(Damage buffs scaling multiplicative/DoT snapshotting stuff like this), Punishing group play, no incentive to seek out new people, little to no reward for proficiency at the game, unfinished endgame or bad difficulty design
These are the main ones to elaborate on one example:
Itemization on D3 vanilla was quite good. Tons of sets and stuff - exciting, but it had problems with damage scaling or lets say balance. Melees had a hard time progressing as far as ranged classes.
Group play was further punished by simply saying 2 players = mobs double hp. Not seeing the consequence on burst classes.
Or simply d2 was botted to death, d3 comes out without any form of bot protection.
Simply not learning from past mistakes again and again. Doesnât need to be your own mistakes. TOS could have learned from D2 aswell or D3 how strong the RMT industry is.
Also the personal experience thing you mentioned I am not projecting from myself. This is how it was for literally everyone in school. I visited so many class mates and it was almost always the same. The kids had the consoles and PCs. However I canât tell about too many girls rooms I only âvisitedâ ;)) about 8 until I left school.
There was just one gamer girl out of 3 full classes 
Towards the powerleveling you are partially correct. That is of course what it is, but why not? Why can I not spend more time in an area where I can level and maybe farm something beneficial for my other characters?
You outgrow all zones sub 150 so fast unless you literally start grinding them randomly. That is a missed opportunity to me. If I start a new char again (would be my fourth) then why canât I pick 2-3 zones I wanna do instead of being drawn through the same set of them again.
But this is too far off-topic for this thread. I just worry about a big loss of players - especially casuals because at the end of the day the masses pay the bill.
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Liking your post is not enough. I hope you can get them to be reasonable better
To put it differently because it is very true: Gamers have the most fun at the expense of other gamers.
Ok. They choose these builds and when changes to classes do come, some will re roll, some will continue on. Adding to class diversity.
This pretty much applys to everything you said after that. [quote=âSkyfire, post:347, topic:215759â]
Circle reset is only bad for a handful of hardcore players
[/quote]
There are just as many people opposed to the resets as there are people for it.
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Wow i donât know with what type of players you played to have so negative arguments about people that are against the circle reset.
So iâll explain my point of view :
All characters have their own journey they should be played by what you think is fun, be it not the best possible outcome for everything. Itâs all about a story you have in mind for your character when you look at the skills that seems to be the type of attacks you want him to use, even if itâs not the best one with actual patch. But sadly right now there are things that are really hard to do, like taking two rank 2 classes with 3circles each in your own build, to get for example the one we see the most : the cryo3/pyro3 because itâs one of those ice-fire character that some of us likes so much in some stories/games/etc. ^^
What shows the most that the devs of this game may intend to balance the classes to make everything having itâs pros and cons, is how they nerfed barbarian which was the cookie-cutting class last year. ^^
By the way i donât think all the guys that donât want those resets are people that wants the others to have a hard time. More about guys whoâd like maybe to have another great journey of ten years on ToS like they had on RO, to try all the characters they could even if they didnât have âa lot of time to wasteâ per day like you think ^^
After the whole flame bait (from others) earlier in the thread, its kind of nice to actually discuss things.
which is the exact reason we NEED an RP server, goddammit 
There isnât a real need for an RP server itself i think. You can be RP while being with non-RP players, even if i build my characters with a story for it in my head, i donât really use the RP playstyle of playing into the characterâs character or things like that.
I really need a reset I came in as a complete noob, and now that I am lvl 100+ I feel I suck I will even pay 50$ for a reset I just donât want to play from 1 againâŚ
Your reasoning completely ignores the fact that many will quit. Having their characters ruined after putting hundreds of hours into them is a big deal to many people.
And I would prefer class diversity that arises from the fact that a number of different builds are good and people want to use them, rather than having a bunch of unhappy people with bad builds that artificially create the kind of diversity you describe. Wouldnât you?
I donât get this impression. There does seem to be a large group of players that argue against circle reset, but when you take the time to read their posts, you see that most of them are against easy circle reset. Iâm one of them. I donât want an effortless way for people to change their builds on a whim. But I see very few people that are against any and all forms of circle reset and even fewer that come up with reasonable arguments to support their case.
More importantly, the representation of people for or against circle reset is completely distorted on the forums. People that frequent these forums are naturally more likely to be informed about the classes, including future classes that are yet to be implemented, and much less likely to make mistakes with their builds. There are thousands of people playing this game. Most of them donât come to the forums and most of them make mistakes with their builds.
after reading thisâŚi feel like i dont want to reset my circle if they implement one. tbh. whenever i make a first char on every game, i really messed with my first char but i chose that circle build in the first place. true, this game is trial and error but itâs ok with me now. i made my own build and i think itâs fine. the only that matters to me now is thatâŚI NEED A STAT RESET!!! 
ah⌠i remember wakfu that has a skill reset period every 30days. the catch is thatâŚyou will gather materials that are required and submit it to the npc for you to be qualified to have a reset voucher or something
Whats to say the people who dont want resets wont quit? To these people, adding resets would ruin the uniqueness and diversity of classes. Player identity also if you know what i mean by that.
Yea that would be cool, balance will happen in time. It wont be perfect though.
The original circle reset post shows the split between wanting resets and not. By this third/fourth post about it, i bet many people are tired of saying the same thing. Iâm getting to that point.
This is the only version of class reset id be ok with. Click link to see the whole thing.
Another option that I like is allow you to reset a character from the beginning, keeping items and achievements. This way they wont go to waste. Possibly give some kind of bonus xp that makes grinding faster than quests for leveling until you get back to where you were. Maybe some other benefits. This way you wont be doing the same quests you already did, unless you want to.
what could be the reason?
Because you have clearly dismissed any and all arguments against a reset? What is this, if not a straw man?
Assumption, opinion. Not fact. Neither of you can claim to be right with certainty here.
What I see is many arguing for whatever reset that helps them personally.
Yet many of these people are also arguing for partial resets only, or ââresets with heavy penaltiesââ.
You are conveniently ignoring this in your argumentation.
They are basically the same threadsâŚhowever the other thread does have stronger opposition. Is that the real reason, perhaps?
Many people already are using builds that arent ââcookie cutterââ. Will a lot of others use them? Yes. Is there a problem with that? No, because they choose to do so. Using cookie-cutter builds is a choice, and historically people (overall) tend to do the easiest thing, and let others think (of builds, theorycrafting in this example) for them.
These same people arent going to magically decide to try out things. Why would they? They already know the ââbest buildsââ
And they have little interest in discovering/figuring things out for themselves, or they would already be doing this.
Ofcourse, thatâs generally speaking. Talking about individuals im sure there will be people who will start experimenting if we were to get resets. But most, will not; they will stay with their presets because its easier. More convenient.
Is your statement, lets see what your arguments behind it are.
It also promotes forcing people into ââcookie cutter buildsââ because you can easily reset into one.
Example:
In WoW once class respecs became cheap to do, it became a thing for people to ââsuggestââ others respec into other roles or âbuildsâ.
If tho they might not want to do, the argument against was ââbut its so easy to do, you should respecââ ââyour dps/healing/tanking will be betterââ
ââwe need you to tank/healââ
At that time people (in general) were a lot less respected for their choice of gamestyle (dps,healing,tanking, build) and were expected to be everything their class could be. Likewise, players typically became less attached to their character because they lost their identity as a ââhealerââ ââtankââ ââdpsââ ââfrostmageââ etc.
Ofcourse these are player expectations. Much like the ââcooking cutter buildsââ being a âmust haveâ in ToS. But the game did open the way.
Thatâs also a strawman.
Information is not hard to come by because the game is unfinished, its hard to come by because the game is new. You can find that information out byâŚplaying the game. And learning from it (and sharing it with others!)
In WoW, class balance became ââoverbalancing untill everything is the sameââ
I was under the impression they nerfed Skyliner in IToS.
That makes this another strawman argument. kToS =/= IToS
These two arguments are entirely off-topic. They serve no purpose in this discussion. kToS servers no purpose in this discussion.
And change it to the ââbest fotm build availableââ each new patch?
Let me ask you a question:
What personal value does a character have, when it is no more then a template for the âflavor of the monthâ?
Balance requires good and bad things. Classes with strengths and weaknesses. And they should be different. Food with different flavors, so to speak.
Thatâs my old friend used to say. I never agreed with it, but it is as it is. You donât get balance by making everything exactly the same.
Why would someone pick a swordsman instead of an archer if they were all but the same, name aside? Why would the pick archer?
Why would they care about their class at all, if it was just the name and looks that were different?
And how do you propose balancing a 100 different, unique, builds?
Ultimately, considering the very large amount of builds that are possible you canât balance a game like this completely, they can only try.
However balancing it by ââputting classes into line with eachotherââ would just turn that choice of classes (that so many people see as a major selling point for ToS) into an illusion of choice.
Is that what you want?
Which at this point has been debased, I think. Or atleast countered to the point where this is up for debate.
Hyperbole. It will most certainly drive away more then ââjust a few dozenââ. How many? Hard to say, but given thousands play ToS, despite/because of its current features; I think its safe to say the numbers will be atleast 1 scale higher. Hundreds. Still minor compared to the total number of players, but mine is a very modest guess.
Why? Well one of the strongest selling points of ToS is its ââmany classes and buildsââ. If people can reset at will, their classes will pretty much be summed up as ââClericââ ââSwordsmanââ ââArcherââ and ââWizardââ.
Thatâs all they will be, gone is all that choice. Because its no longer choice if you can become it any time.
Strawman.
Making millions of $$ profit =/= as financially viable.
I think itâs clear for the majority of us that ToS doesnt in any way or shape claim to be a ââgame made for casualsââ, or am I mistaken?
This is one game where you cannot casually throw around the ââcasualââ argument.
How long will it take for a casual player to get such a character to begin with? By then they have already played the game for months.
Thatâs not a back âtrackrecordâ for a single MMO.
Yet you donât explain why ââbutchering their buildââ is. Nor do you give the (valid) argument, that has been given by many that are opposed to a general reset:
Major patch changes should provide some sort of ââpartialââ reset
Very few have argued against this. Which is why you donât use it as an argument, as this suddenly makes the opposition âânot uncaring after allââ
After having played the game for a good many months to reach that level. Did they enjoy the game for those months? If they did, I would say it was time well spend. At the very least, its many months that ToS had + 1 population. (for each person that would leave over this)
People leave MMOs every day, for every reason under the sun. Do you want to keep everyone playing a game for years on end, regardless of their personal interests?
You are arguing something that cannot be concluded from your arguments. I can give an argument against this that is as baseless as your own:
How many do you think will leave when circle resets become available freely? Many.
Ofcourse, mine isnt as baseless, not entirely. Because I can atleast base this on the fact that itâs commonly known that ToS is ââmore hardcore then casualââ
Itâs a grinding game that claims to be ROs spiritual successor after all.
Baseless assumption. Why would we feel differently then? A few have already confessed to ââmessing up their buildââ but ââtaking it like a (wo)manââ and either rerolling because they really want to have that great ââperfect buildââ, or continueing with the character they love.
Yet they are still opposed to circle resets.
Hardcore players are no less human then you and I, or anyone else. They make mistakes too. And often pride tends to get in the way of rerolling because someone with too much pride wonât admit their mistakes easily.
Who do you think shares the information about the ââcookie cutterââ builds? Itâs those same hardcore players that made/discovered them in the first place. Obviously not all of them are so sharing, but regardless, itâs all people who invest many hours into the game and take pride in sharing their findings.
These same [quote=âSkyfire, post:347, topic:215759â]
handful of hardcore players with too much time on their hands
[/quote]
And may I ask if you have any, Sir/madam second account poster?
Because it seems to me everyone have ulterior motives, most are just more upfront about it. Itâs a human thing to have your personal motivations, is it not?
But Iâm not sure if it is wise to call others out on that in your situation. One might call you the hypocrite.
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Really? I said this right after.
If you dont care about that stuff then you wont understand. This is just about the only thing that makes this game different from others. Without it, this game is just another mmo.
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