Tree of Savior Forum

New SP Usage is Insane

General Discussion
#307

You’re wasting your time trying to reason with him.

This guy suggested to rush balance patch w/o proper QA thinking it was a great idea, despite many told him it was going to fail trying to explain him why.

He ignored everyone and kept repeating “IMC will overachieve” like a broken record then patch hit and the game’s population tanked.

Re:build is going to have similar results for the same reasons: bugs everywhere, half.assed patches, poor design choices, meta switching with most class combos still underperforming, wrong patch notes and so on.

But then remiri will be happy again with a 1300 average CCU game.

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#308

Thats the sad part, we get accused of being toxic trolls and spamming negativity but we just want the game to improve and have an actual player base.

Re: build has come and gone and with it so have the majority of the people that came back to check things out for the reasons you and many others have pointed out.

Theres no optimization, its more unstable now then almost ever, I say almost b/c I played during the commander load fail days. For every class buff there was 2 class nerfs, there arent more diverse play styles, its still the same handful of metas.

To top everything off they are now pushing content exclusively for the 1%, superior demon lords can be killed in 10 minutes but only 25 people get a reward, thats awesome now that like 300 people show up. Heres a new weekly raid, its also geared towards who has the biggest zerg and most money, please stop.

I want a better game, that doesnt make me a troll. Read a steam chart, look around in game, deny what you like but you cant argue the numbers.

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#309

He fails to understand that having to build a toon around SP consumption, having to micromanage to the point of building an alchemist alt, is not fun.

Honestly I don’t like re:build, the game has lost what made it unique,it’s atmosphere, it’s sense of challenge and achievement after balance patch, now resembling a crappy mobile game.

And enforced party play will hit hard once the population drops again.

2 Likes
#310

Its frustrating for me that they are forcing the entire remnants of the population into 1 small area only to set the servers on fire and crash the channel.

I just lost another cube on Marnox b/c people either purposely crashed the channel to give their buddies time to arrive or it crashed due to the number of people, my guildess got back in just in time to rank but I could not. Between that and the power point slide show that is gem feud which im also basically forced to do now for the 2 free blessed gems I jus am tired of it all.

I was excited when I heard about re: build, at the time I was playing MS2 and ran into Joeswaaz who had recently quit ToS and when he told me about the new stuff I had hope. I came back a month early to farm and learn the new features and since then, especially after re: build, it just feels the same as before, constant crashes, bugs, exploiters, and the 1% getting richer at every turn.

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#311

Yet you still used it as an example, it’s one of the more extreme examples because no one keeps it on 24/7 like they did pre rebuild.

Look if you read my previous posts, you’ll see I don’t fully agree with Remiri, but to say it’s the end of the world and unplayable like people have been clamoring in this thread is just nonsense and completely off-base. It could use some tweaks yes, but I feel the level of outrage is not justified.

#312

So what? I used it because it shows perfectly how some classes have unbalanced SP usage (as I always said), the fact that no one can use it effectively anymore to the point that many have removed it from their build altogether corroborates my point.

Quote any post of mines where I’ve said it’s unplayable.
I said it’s tedious (again, depending on gear and class) and everyone that tries to defend or downplay it, you included, keeps proving it.

I’m sick of people that straight tell players “get good or quit” or belittling/downplaying problems that eventually leads them to quit and leave the game in a barren state.

It has been happening since launch, with every minor and major problem, and look at what the game has become, didn’t you learn anything yet?

That’s one of my personal let down’s. The game’s performance is still horrible, with more than 10 players is like watching a slow-mo.

The fact that they push another (unbalanced) pvp content with such a poor optimization is appalling, but I’m not really surprised given that some people defended balance patch despite being rushed as an half-assed patch, full of bugs and lacking many features, some of which where added via ninja patches.

The same is happening with re:build and it’s not going to end differently, sadly.

Edit: Channels crash problem is as old as the game, it’s another issue they didn’t bother to fix.
Simply said, they mostly don’t listen to the playerbase and don’t give a damn about the problems.

#313

Two weeks into rebuild. Yet another chance to re-evaluate and reflect on things Ive learned.
SP usage turned out to be not that terrible at all. During velcoffer runs with any character I use around 10 SP pots. AT MAX. During solo CM I rarely use sp pots at all.
Never use SP pots with linker-thauma farmer. Never use SP pots in 330 dg runs with any toon.

Base Camp food almost completely negate the need in SP pots. And yes, clever skills use management is the key.
So Rebuild has no problems with SP usage. It has lots of other problems that spoil the experience from the game very much. But its a matter for another thread.

#314

So your suggestion for new players is to roll a squire to not have problems?
Ok.

1 Like
#315

Squire food is not a must. It just allows you ••not to use SP pots at all••
Without it you have to use SP pots from time to time, that is absolutely normal. I have a strong feeling that ive been using much more SP pots with certain classes before rebuild, than I do now

You can play normally without BaseCamp Food and without spamming SP pots.

#316

Let’s start by saying that I don’t have potions problems, I’m used to old animus and double archmage bangle (and can live with some extremes too, if necessary and/or speeds up what I’m doing).

Now try doing what you do (CM or HG farming, for example) with a non-endgame, +6, trans 0 weapon like many new players do, then come back and tell me that you barely use potions if a rotation isn’t enough to kill a pack of mobs.

SP consumption depends on class and gear, you don’t put yourself in their shoes.

#317

Stop fixing on SP consumption at all.
The problem is the gap between new players and veteran players, rebuild have made wider. Its not the SP problem, its the problem that people without trans late game gear dont do any damage. Having not enough SP is a consequence, not the reason.

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#318

Oh, I 100% agree with you on that, I’ve been saying that it depends on class and gear since my first post.

But this topic is about SP consumption and I reckon that without proper gear its management is really tedious.

You know, sometimes sympathizing with players having problems instead of telling them to sit on a bonfire or roll an alchemist helps.

A thing that I noticed the very first day trying to do saalus with an alt with a +16 trans 0 primus weapon, hence I said “hit like a wet noodle”.

Edit: let me add, that’s why I said that 1313 more atk is abyssal, it could make the difference between dealing damage or not.

#319

Yeah.
But fixing on SP consumption rates can lead to (not that I believe that whining on this forum can led to any changes, due to iToS being just a localization and all decisions are made on kToS) simple SP costs fix. And that will not change the core problem - undergeared players would still struggle to kill anything, its just that they would not have to spam SP pots every 30 seconds.

Edit: let me add, that’s why I said that 1313 more atk is abyssal, it could make the difference between dealing damage or not.

I have a feeling that the difference begins after 4-5k difference now, but I may be wrong.

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#320

And I agree again with you, but I think that everything should be toned down, not toned up further, so a little tweaking of SP consumption would make sense.

They’re not really good at balancing the game, every time they try, they fail miserably so it would be wiser to opt for a tone down.

Someone in another thread said that he wasn’t dealing damage in ET with 9k+ atk and started dealing decent damage with 10.9k.
1000 attack may seem small, but every bit adds up and may make the difference.

#321

Someone in another thread said that he wasn’t dealing damage in ET with 9k+ atk and started dealing decent damage with 10.9k.
1000 attack may seem small, but every bit adds up and may make the difference.

Hooo. Thats amazing and not very self-explanatory. Like… why??

#322

I don’t know, I was trying to find the thread but I found another with similar issues:

Edit: my bad, the post was about Gliehel Memorial. (even worse, from my pov, since it’s a field map)

1 Like
#323

You acknowledge that you can avoid using PES for SP conservation, but then say to play with PES on and you’ll see SP issues.

PES specifically isn’t an SP issue. It’s a skill issue. It uses twice as much SP as pre rebuild and does like 75% less damage than before. This isn’t an great example for the “SP usage issue”. It’s an example for how not all classes are tuned properly and skills/SFRs are not great. Which I have talked about in multiple threads that those are the items the devs should be focusing on.

I’m not saying get good or quit, look at all of the examples and suggestions in this thread outside of buy potions. There are multitudes of way to either conserve sp or not have these sp issues everyones talking about. I’m more inclined to think that people are just spamming skills like they are pre rebuild, or just not understanding game mechanics like using costly aoe skills to kill single mobs.

Everyone says its bad at low levels but I’ve been leveling an alt scout, and its at level 124 and I have yet to experience any of these issues.

#324

What part of this you missed?

And you keep proving my point by saying these things: SP management is tedious with some classes and/or if you don’t have good gear.

You can read the discussion between me and @nfprivaron to understand why it happens, but it’s OT here.

#325

I think I know what you’re trying to say, but if it uses twice as much SP while dealing less damage, wouldn’t the problem still be an SP issue to an extent? After all, we’re saying the SP cost doesn’t match the damage of the skill. If the skill dealt the same damage but cost 1 SP (theoretical scenario) then people would claim it was decent damage for practically no upkeep cost. Similarly, if the skill dealt as much as a Sonic Strike but consumed like 2000 SP per second (extremely exaggerated and not that great of an example, I know) then people would be fine with it, just like they were with Shadowmancer dealing huge amounts of damage for huge amounts of SP pre-re:Build. They’d complain about the skill having little practicality sure, but they’d recognize that it’s supposed to be used for very short periods of time now.

It’s more prominent with certain classes, just like balancing issues are more prominent with certain classes. On my BM and Alchemist I usually forget to even activate pots until I’ve run out of mana like 5 minutes after the start of battle, but my Musketeer has to drink a mana pot off CD or run out of SP shortly after. Which brings me to my second point:

Certain classes are designed for skill spam. My musketeer actually has just a tad bit more SP consumption post-re:build than it did before, because I usually take full advantage of my CD reset skill to burst out all of my high-damage skills. You can choose not to do this of course, but the skill is there. It makes more sense to take advantage of it than finish a full rotation, find one or more of your skills is almost off CD, then use the CD reset anyways. In other words, I’m being incentivized to skill spam. Another example would be Oracle. Oracle’s Death goes off CD once the mob is killed. In Challenge Mode you can practically spam the skill non-stop with the volume of mobs constantly being killed. You can choose not to use it as much of course, and you should be smart about using it (don’t spam it on a bunch of mobs you just Death Sentence’d), but your average party won’t thank you for it. Instead the average party will be super grateful if instead you chug down SP pots and other things to spam Death Sentence on every single mob you see because that way you’ll have made the run go faster.

I know you’re probably using this just as a random example, but even ignoring the fact that mobs tend to come in packs in this game most classes have invested their skill and attribute points into mobbing skills because those are the skills you need for raids and CM. Hence it makes no sense for a Wizard to spam level 1, 0 attribute Energy Bolt when they could just use their level 5, attribute 50 Magic Missile. There’s also the fact that players with poor gear will take significantly longer to take down a mob, which extends their SP usage and makes SP management problems more noticeable. Players should be rewarded for investing in their gear, but it’s not fair if well-geared players claim there is no SP management problem because they’re not as affected by it.

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#326

A crappy skill proves your point that sp usage is insane? There’s a combination of things why people don’t use PES as often as before because its a crap skill in rebuild because of how trash mobs are scaling now, it scales off of your SS which we’re already having skill point issues maxing it, and it has horrible SFR. The current cost of it isn’t why people are shying away from it, if they fixed/tuned these other issues, people will be gladly to use it.
I still dont understand how you can keep missing the part that PES doesn’t have a SP problem, it horribly designed in rebuild.

You realize games change over time and mechanics and things change in games or meta things come out. Before, the developers thought skill spamming was all there is to it and resource management was not important. But with the balance, attack, defense, and hp changes, making resource management an actual mechanic in the game is an important aspect now. Things change, learn to adapt.

See above for the reasons for PES that are not an SP issue.

I play both a ranger-falc-merg and musk-falc-piper. The only time I actually use many pots is on velc and cm7 and raids for my musket. I understand you’re saying take advantage of reset skill and burst…but you realize how easy cms are nowadays and how quick mobs and the boss dies. You don’t need to spam everything.

Yeah I threw this one out as an random example. I don’t think people are saying there is no sp management problem, its that now we actually have to sp manage. I remember pre rebuild I spammed all my skills, having 1 pointers in everything to fill OH gaps. And you replenish so fast with potions, it’s a different game now and outside a few niche spots (Bernice) I don’t think you need to be piano’ing your keyboard to play this game.

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