Tree of Savior Forum

New SP Usage is Insane

General Discussion
#287

Between trivial and annoying management there is a whole amount of fine tuning available.
Having to bring tons of (different) potions to refill SP and drinking them at batches is not a challenge nor fun, it’s only an annoying design.

The issue I see with saalus-like content, is that is a “must-do” daily, if you can’t play at peak hours and the game goes back to 1300 players, undergeared alts* and new players are screwed, unless you multibox like some peoples do.

If they wanted to push party play, they should’ve encouraged it by offering better rewards for using the queue system, like the exp boost in normal dungeons.

* Undergeared by re:build standards

#288

As shown by videos in this very thread, this is not reality, nor is it my experience in the game. No one has to spam different types of SP potions to keep up with skills.

Only example of that would be if a Dragoon wants to keep up their full helmet forever, which is poor play.

#289

Depends on the class and the gear, as usual.

Give a try to falconer-mergen-ranger or (any)+zealot or (any)+shadowmancer, for eg.

You either don’t use some skills at all or your SP is drained in a rotation (or, in the case of falconer, by just having pre-empitive strike on for some seconds).

#290

I am running with Paladin + Oracle + Zealot. I counter balance the high SP cost of zealot with Arcane Energy so I only need alchemist potions every once and a while.

A proper rotation and thoughtful build can counter most SP issues.

#291

SP system as it currently is, have no future in RPGs.
Resource as managment system is alright, as long as it is done correctly.
What ToS fail at is:

1)You create game that revolve around skill usage, not around autoattack - meaning you MUST HAVE SP, its not something GOOD TO HAVE
2)You have super small amounts of SP regen and have no ways to regen it in sensible amounts to keep up the pace of the game
3)You must spam potions in order to keep up with the base of the game. Wouldnt be bad concept if the potions were something like in POE, where they regen as you kill. Here its just spam of something that wanish.

There are many resource managment systems that work well, ex:

1)POE - you have potions that regen, you kill and you get them back up, this way you keep the pace of the game. You also have mana leech which allow you to minimize the need of potions. POE is still using the outdated concepts so its not perfect example. The other drawback is that the game is centered around spam of one skill only.

2)Diablo 3 - some skills generate mana, other strongers spend them. This force you to manage your resources, but you dont need any items to keep the fighting at healthy pace. Thats how it was on the release on D3, now its probably spam fest with some builds. The drawback of it - you use only skills that are the best, since you dont want to waste resource on fillers.

3)Wolcen - new rpg that is during development, it use dual resource system. Some skills generate resource X and eat resource Y, while others generate Y and eat X. You must mix skills of various types in order to keep the battle at pace.

4)Many other games - simply remove SP and work with cooldowns which are resource by themself. Give synergy between skills (especially in game like ToS) that will reduce or reset cooldowns of other skills creating some sort of combos.

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#292

You know, not everyone has Oracle or should be forced to have it in order to keep up with sp usage: that kills the whole re:build “diversity”.

Yes, you can add oracle or alchemist or squire to ease off sp draining of some classes, but that is only a workaround that not everyone should be forced to resort into.

I didn’t deny that avoiding to use some skills helps (like fanatic illusion or blind faith or pre-empitive strike), but you should realize that this is a band-aid for a broken design.

3 Likes
#293

The only time I chug potions is Bernice, CM7, and World bosses. This is only because I’m racing and spamming everything. Even Velc, I don’t spam pots because it’s not hard content and you don’t need to spam all your skills on him.

Also, I was leveling a scout over the weekend from 0. I’m level 124, and I have faced 0 sp usage issues. So far my experiences do not align with what people are complaining about. I actually died twice during leveling, I’ve found myself having hp issues rather than sp ones.

I still don’t get how people are having so many issues, I really think people are just used to pre rebuild skill spamming 1point inefficient skills.

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#294

Odd. You say ANY + Zealot, I counter with a thoughtful build to stop SP from being an issue and you reply and move the goalposts.

#295

Remiri, even with oracle a single use of blind faith drains 50% of your SP, let alone fanatic illusion.

I’m trying to be reasonable, you aren’t.

#296

And arcane energy brings it all the way back to 100%.

Also you should only be using blind faith on bosses, it isn’t something that belongs in a rotation.

EDIT: Another rookie mistake that people do is use SP Pots when they are out of SP, instead of when they would optimize SP gain from it and set the cooldown off. When you are 80% or so in SP you should be using your 1st SP Potion to get the maximum return.

These are all parts of basic SP management.

#297

Yes, and you save a couple of pots every min, so what?

Also the fact that blind faith is used on bosses only is irrelevant and fanatic illusion is used while farming.

Anyway, if you want to state that everything is fine and ignore any argument, so be it.

Last time you said the same thing (rush balance patch) we know how your brilliant idea ended.

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#298

There is a difference between ignoring arguments and debunking them. The complaint that SP usage is out of control is a fantasy, designed by people who can’t think outside of the box and adjust their gameplay or macro-management.

I have yet to see one decent point to refute that, and all real-time examples support that SP usage is fine, but people are having difficulty adjusting to gameplay that requires thought.

#299

Try to keep up with pre-empitive strike.

By the way, I didn’t say it’s impossible, I said it’s tedious, something that you proved with all your band-aid suggestions to overcome the issue.

fixed. But this is not sim-city and not everyone likes to micro-manage.

Anyway, you said it’s fine. Ok Remiri, once again so be it.

3 Likes
#300

Try keeping up with falconer changes dude. Everyone knows keeping up PES is ill advised in rebuild. It’s a bad skill atm in terms of sp and efficiency and really should only be on for bosses for blind, which they are fixing it seems.

This is an example of people not thinking and playing as if it were pre rebuild.

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#301

macro-management means what you do with your character that doesn’t involve gameplay or micro-management; such as the class you play, the gear you choose to equip (SP gear or SP regen gear, cards, etc), the skills you choose to master, etc.

micro-management is anything gameplay-related, or ‘skill’ related as people would say.

Both are equally important in managing SP use.

#302

This is an example of people not reading posts before hitting “reply”.

I already stated that

Micro-management is what best describes your suggestions (use pots at 80%, make an alchemist and craft your pots after farming uosis, insert [X] class to help, sit on a bonfire, buy cards, SP regen gear, etc.).

You can do all of that (probably not everything at low level) but if you think that it is fun, be my guest.

Anyway, you keep proving that SP management is tedious now (edit: since balance patch, to be honest).

This is my last reply to you since, as we both know, it’s like talking to a wall, like it happened with your smart suggestion to rush balance patch.
We’ll see again who’s right in a couple of months.

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#303

And you say you’re talking to a wall…

Changing class options, getting card, SP regen, etc are macro not micro.

It takes a combination of these to avoid having SP issues. The people in this thread are demonstrably failing at one, or both of these management options.

Yes, we will see if IMC caters to players demanding to not play properly. I hope they don’t cave.

#304

The rumored SP cost reduction patch in KR isn’t in today’s patch for us so my interest in ToS tanks heavily till it’s addressed. At this point I’m bored of this new unfun playstyle where 4 skills take my SP bar to 0. Sure I can pump up my main with as much SP recovery gear as possible mixing light/heavy/leather in the process just for the highest SP stats available, and make him an AA BM and run Squire and Alchemist alts along side of him but it’s all just so unnecessarily tedious and certainly not fun with my lesser geared alts who aren’t BMs and are builds I wanted to play for fun. It shouldn’t be what everyone has to do to play their class longer than 1-2 minutes.

Re:Build also failed to bring any of my friends back to the game because performance is still sh*t with constant lag and channel crashes, SP recovery removal is disgusting, market is still pay2win with dead economy and bugs still shroud everything in a very thick coat of bees making it all just too unprofessional looking for any serious gamer to trust investing time into. Pretty much same reasons they quit to begin with long time ago. Better luck next major patch, IMC.

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#305

I heavily disagree, but you’re entitled to your opinion just as much as I am… so I’ll give you that. If you did complete it during that time, good for you.
I’m mostly saying that if that is the bar you set for what an “elite player” is, is a little too elitist imo.

I agree with you on this though. They did make the game infinitely too easy. It did need nerfing, but not that much. I do miss the old challenge sometimes.

However, the SP management doesn’t really make anything more difficult at all, just tedious.
To me personally, I think it needs a little tweaking. Maybe Spr giving just a little regen but not too much. It’s not so bad that it’s garbage, but it’s felt a lot in CMs and content where you’re more or less forced to spam skills.

I think you know as well as I do, that they could make the game challenging without resorting to tedium. New Saalus is a decent example of this, though it’s still pretty easy…
It isn’t too hard, there are no drawbacks to failure besides time lost, and the reward given is still worth the effort. I was hoping for the early Re:Build design difficulty, but they decided to make it easier. Nonetheless, I don’t think SP management is the answer.

I have no clue what drug Siete is on tho

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#306

And again, that is what people can not understand.

Challenging and tedious are not the same thing, Saalus dailies and the new SP consumption are not challenging, they are annoying.

As far as Remiri goes, hes completely out of touch with the majority of the player base b/c IMC flat out adressed player’s concerns and complaints already regarding multiple issues including Saalus difficulty which shows for IMC to specifically mention it, it was clearly an issue with many people even though Remiri swears it doesnt exist.

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