Tree of Savior Forum

New Drop System in kTest/kToS

It’s funny how you assume that IMC will do the right things when it fits your cause

Either way, if IMC won’t buff the droprates for pure RNG everyone will be worse off, you’ll be permanently in the state of
"Might as well just call it a night"

Right now if something has 500 “dpk”, someone getting a drop would make you have 0.2% to get that item on the first kill but it will just constantly increase the more monsters are killed
Now we can have the scenario of IMC making it purely RNG and setting that exact same item to 0.2% flat
That is not an improvement in any way, am I wrong?

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Until the actual percentages that IMC decided are known we can’t say that what we’re getting is better than what we have. As it has been stated before, a simple reduction of DPK numbers would’ve been a good fix

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They are just clueless and salty because they did not drop an item they wanted at some point… THey don’t seem to understand what they are asking will reduce the drop rate…

The only items that might be pure DPK are cubes as of now. And that comes from very very low amount of data on the matter and tehre is no way to prove it.

Basically, since people want to bring math in this, the negative side of the statistical bell curve is removed by the top down method. Remove the failsafe, allow the negative side of the bell curve to happen. You all might not have a major in math like I do but crap it’s not that hard to understand…

edit :
Ok I lied, I only have a minor in math <.< but my major also had a bunch of different maths.

Given the DPK parameter of 20k, being pure DPK and being top-down DPK will be hardly indistinguishable from one another at any time really. Especially now that kill count doesn’t reset anymore after a server/channel reset, we’ve lost the only way to test it in simple terms: farmign right after maint and waiting for a cube to drop, if it does you’d have proven it’s not pure DPK. if it took thousands of kills though, we’d be back to not enough data to prove either one…

That actually just make it obvious why people hate the current system and think RNG would be better, they likely can’t say whether it’s not pure DPK at all. Reducing the DPk parameter would be such a better idea really, I wonder how little faith IMC has in their own (for once good) ideas that they’d change the entire system to please a mass of players who don’t really seem to fully understand what’s going on.

Either way the problem is that IMC supposedly implemented pure rng on the test servers
There’s nothing that can be done about it now, unless you want to drop to the same low level of the whiners who were crying about (nonexistant) dpk in the first place 24/7 on the forums

We can only hope now that the dropchance will be increased from their old “dpk” values because thinking about farming gems with 0.01% droprate makes me want to puke

I’m sorry, but if person A’s chance to loot an item is determined by person B, C, D or however many people are on the same map, and someone else drops the item instead of person A and person A’s chances drop again, person A may feel robbed of a higher chance to get the item (which is pretty much true, because after the item drops the counter is resetting to a much smaller percentage, which everyone has to tick away at again to increase the chances of the item dropping).

Top-down, DPK, whatever you want to call it, doesn’t change the point that people still feel robbed when their chances are constantly determined by other people and that chance becomes abyssmally low when the item does drop for someone else and not them, despite their best individual efforts.

This was the point I tried to explain. Regardless of whether or not it is or isn’t actually stealing since everyone always has a chance, people are going to feel as if their higher chances of dropping the item are stolen away when the item drops for someone else.

This was already proven in some later posts of this olde topic that a reasonable amount of people found a shared system frustrating to deal with.

It was already explained by an abrasive personality earlier.

Please don’t make blanket statements if you want people to take your arguments seriously.

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Im kinda worried this may make some items really hard to obtain.

I also just read a bit of this thread … guys we DONT have dpk for a good while already, topdown drop system is way different and its actually an easier RNG system that its gonna get changed to full RNG.

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I understand what you are trying to say,but removing the topdown would just reduce the amount of drops. Would you rather have an increasing chance over the time, or just always sit at 0.001% ? Basically, what you want to avoid would be far worse in a pure rng system.

Would you feel any better in a pure rng system if after 9000 kills of hanaming you see someone pass by, kill a hanaming and gets the gem in front of you?

At laest right now, you know that until a drop occurs, your chance inceases. Hence why you get ‘excited’ the more you kill a monster. You want to see that increase removed. It sucks seeing someone ahve a loot in front of you, but it sucks a lot more farming for 10 hours straight alone without having anything because RNG ■■■■■■ you

It sucks seeing someone have a loot, but there is no way of knowing if it was a failsafe drop or not. You probably always assume it was, but most likely it was not. You seem to forget that there is still a 0.001% chance that someone come in, kill 2 monsters, get a loot and leave even if the topdown was at 1/999 instead of 1/1000.

isn’t iToS the testing tool lol

It looks like IMC is trying to make things more progressive. It’s possible that instead of just cube fragments from 320 HG, we may get other fragment types like Monster Gems and anything else that is top-down DPK related.

If they go the fragment route for all top-down DPK items, they can afford to make the drop rates higher / more common. If the shards can be traded, that would also be great as there would be an economy for them.

But we don’t really know what rates IMC is going to use for these items, or if all top-down DPK items are fragments or not.

Fragments are confirmed for cubes only, which are MAYBE the only real DPK items in the game right now. All the other items are RNG + failsafe as of now so it would make no sense adding fragments.

I will just say that I’m okay with a progressive approach for looting. If HG cube fragment system is well-liked by the majority, they may extend the system to other items.

Basically you would prefer having to drop 4100 items at 10% drop rate instead of 41 at 0.01% because you could see the progression faster.

But statistically speaking, if would take you roughly the same time to achieve both. Just a matter of how you ‘feel’.

Both situations stated above are exactly the same statistically speaking.

41 x 1/1000
410 x 1/100
4100 x 1/10
41000 x 1/1

But I have to agree it sucks spending 2 hours on a map and leaving without a drop. But putting the system in pure RNG would not change that.

And I think that’s the catch, ‘feel’

You can make the most logically sounded system possible, but if players don’t ‘feel’ any joy playing the game then they’ll quit and that’ll be the end of the game.

Case in point: WoW and rested exp.
Where initially WoW had ‘unrested’ exp that reduces your exp gain if you play for too long.
Obviously it wasn’t well received.
Then they simply change it to ‘rested’ exp that increases your exp gain and builds up when you’re not playing.

Supposedly that’s all they changed, the actual mechanic wasn’t touched at all, and it was received well.

In this case I believe it sorta does. Part of the hate on the DPK (even the one with fail-safe) is the knowledge that if anyone else get the drop, your chance will go down. It doesn’t matter if statistically the DPK version gives more drops overall, it’s that growing worries as you keep farming and not see any drop, ‘did someone else got it?’ ‘am I farming while the DPK value is low?’ etc
It is not enjoyable, at least with pure RNG you can blame RNGesus and be over with (though with the addition of cube frags that frustration should be fairly negligible now)

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That is why I defend the current topdown system. It is not the problem. It is actually quite nice. People just don’t understand how it works. and how it increases the drop rates. The current ‘problem’ is that the drop rates are super low.

I hope IMC will secretly keep that mecanism even if they put the drop in ‘pure rng’.

But ‘feeling’ is a personnal thing. Everybody feels differently. How terrible would it be to see 4 / 41000 yellow antenna dropped. You would not have any hype dropping an item. It would remove the ‘bad feels’ of farming an hour for nothing, but it would also remove the hype when you get 2 drops in 5min.

Sure. To me, it feels better to feel the progress of what I’m trying to obtain.

I’d rather spend an average of 6-8 hours farming 45 Red Dawn Fragments than spend an average of 6-8 hours farming 4 or 5 Red Dawn Fragments. This is, of course, under the assumption that Phada only required 4 or 5 Red Drawn fragments in the latter scenario. At least I know that in the former scenario, the fragments will be much cheaper to purchase individually if I’m missing some and need to complete my item.

This isn’t a new concept, either. Wakfu does something similar with their items (or at least did, the last time I checked that game which was probably 2 years ago).

If they do pure RNG and use a progressive system, there would be more room for trading and an additional layer to our economy (fragments to complete items). Also, if they use fragments, they can get away with making drops more common (for example, 0.5% per fragment of a monster gem or something like that… the number is randomly chosen for this example, the %chance can obviously be adjusted).

Maybe you’re right and the current top-down system will be just fine if we had better drop values and better spawn rates. Maybe RNG with a progressive system is better. I don’t know. I will just wait and see what IMC has planned for rates of items once everything is % chance.

My problem with the current system is that it encourages a type of gameplay that I don’t like, even when I’m the only one farming. On a pure RNG system I can try my luck any given timespan, whenever I want and its always the same. In the current system I’m forced to play until I get my drop, because the thinking is always "okay I already INVESTED so much time, and it’s a bad idea to invalidate that investment by leaving, even if only 5min"
So under the current system I’m not free to call it a day, without loosing something. Under pure RNG it doesnt matter if I farm for 5min or for 500min.
Thats the main problem of ToS that you are always forced to do anything, instead of beeing free to choose do what you want. In this sense RO was totally free, even to a point that some got lost and didn’t knew what to do at all.

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Completely agree with you. The current system we have on iToS with (1/(DPK-Kills)) is much better than both only rng and only dpk. They would better increase drop chance and amount needed(for some another loot). Like they are doing with incomplete cubes.

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This would be fine if they increased spawn rates + channels too. I expect more people per channel fighting for each room since this is giving them more legitimate excuse to KS now. It only takes 1-2 good dps with a base camp to clear all the rooms before anyone can touch a mob. Anyway I could be very well wrong. Let’s hope for the best lel

Most people don’t play a game to learn its hidden mechanics, they just want to have fun.
I know quite a few people who’d rather be playing the game, not even understanding their build is ‘not optimal’ or whatever the endgame players will call it, and have fun than be trying to googling guides on the game.

That’s the opposite of extreme DPK value/low % drops, the highly common item but absurd amount required.

It kills the motivation to even start working on that farm, rather than causes frustration from lack of progress.

Overall it’s less about the system itself and more on the execution/balancing.

For example, using that absurd amount required way, I’ll use an example from another game: Warframe.
So in warframe, there’s clan (guild) researches that any members can contribute to the research amount to unlock the item for anyone in the clan to purchase.
There’s a gun called Hema that had an absurd amount of a material required.
It was a mistake, but one that the Dev chose not to fix in the end and riled up quite a lot of player.

The thing is, the amount itself was certainly high, but the real issue was how to obtain that resource.
Out of the whole map, only 2 location have access to that resource, one location have it as insanely rare drop, while the other disabled auto-matching.

If that gun had use any of the other 2 ‘rare’ resources that is readily available everywhere else? People might raised an eyebrow, but it wouldn’t cause a uproar, because people would have those things available just through playing the game normally.

The point is that it’s possible to make it work, just that you have to make it to the combined experience is enjoyable.
Absurdly low chance to obtain? Either makes it something really powerful that it feels worth the effort, or makes it something that doesn’t impact gameplay so it’s more of a surprise bonus (like cosmetics)
High amount required? Makes it commonly available from various sources so players isn’t stuck in one area (like the kill count achievement, or in a way, silver) and that the thing does not burdens the player in anyway (i.e. silver have no weight so you can have however much you want without worries of weight limit)

Or to use ToS example:
Cafrisun always drop a piece of the set - worth waiting/finding the rare spawn.
Manahas does not always drop from the specific mob - sigh…