I will just say that I’m okay with a progressive approach for looting. If HG cube fragment system is well-liked by the majority, they may extend the system to other items.
Basically you would prefer having to drop 4100 items at 10% drop rate instead of 41 at 0.01% because you could see the progression faster.
But statistically speaking, if would take you roughly the same time to achieve both. Just a matter of how you ‘feel’.
Both situations stated above are exactly the same statistically speaking.
41 x 1/1000
410 x 1/100
4100 x 1/10
41000 x 1/1
But I have to agree it sucks spending 2 hours on a map and leaving without a drop. But putting the system in pure RNG would not change that.
And I think that’s the catch, ‘feel’
You can make the most logically sounded system possible, but if players don’t ‘feel’ any joy playing the game then they’ll quit and that’ll be the end of the game.
Case in point: WoW and rested exp.
Where initially WoW had ‘unrested’ exp that reduces your exp gain if you play for too long.
Obviously it wasn’t well received.
Then they simply change it to ‘rested’ exp that increases your exp gain and builds up when you’re not playing.
Supposedly that’s all they changed, the actual mechanic wasn’t touched at all, and it was received well.
In this case I believe it sorta does. Part of the hate on the DPK (even the one with fail-safe) is the knowledge that if anyone else get the drop, your chance will go down. It doesn’t matter if statistically the DPK version gives more drops overall, it’s that growing worries as you keep farming and not see any drop, ‘did someone else got it?’ ‘am I farming while the DPK value is low?’ etc
It is not enjoyable, at least with pure RNG you can blame RNGesus and be over with (though with the addition of cube frags that frustration should be fairly negligible now)
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That is why I defend the current topdown system. It is not the problem. It is actually quite nice. People just don’t understand how it works. and how it increases the drop rates. The current ‘problem’ is that the drop rates are super low.
I hope IMC will secretly keep that mecanism even if they put the drop in ‘pure rng’.
But ‘feeling’ is a personnal thing. Everybody feels differently. How terrible would it be to see 4 / 41000 yellow antenna dropped. You would not have any hype dropping an item. It would remove the ‘bad feels’ of farming an hour for nothing, but it would also remove the hype when you get 2 drops in 5min.
Sure. To me, it feels better to feel the progress of what I’m trying to obtain.
I’d rather spend an average of 6-8 hours farming 45 Red Dawn Fragments than spend an average of 6-8 hours farming 4 or 5 Red Dawn Fragments. This is, of course, under the assumption that Phada only required 4 or 5 Red Drawn fragments in the latter scenario. At least I know that in the former scenario, the fragments will be much cheaper to purchase individually if I’m missing some and need to complete my item.
This isn’t a new concept, either. Wakfu does something similar with their items (or at least did, the last time I checked that game which was probably 2 years ago).
If they do pure RNG and use a progressive system, there would be more room for trading and an additional layer to our economy (fragments to complete items). Also, if they use fragments, they can get away with making drops more common (for example, 0.5% per fragment of a monster gem or something like that… the number is randomly chosen for this example, the %chance can obviously be adjusted).
Maybe you’re right and the current top-down system will be just fine if we had better drop values and better spawn rates. Maybe RNG with a progressive system is better. I don’t know. I will just wait and see what IMC has planned for rates of items once everything is % chance.
My problem with the current system is that it encourages a type of gameplay that I don’t like, even when I’m the only one farming. On a pure RNG system I can try my luck any given timespan, whenever I want and its always the same. In the current system I’m forced to play until I get my drop, because the thinking is always "okay I already INVESTED so much time, and it’s a bad idea to invalidate that investment by leaving, even if only 5min"
So under the current system I’m not free to call it a day, without loosing something. Under pure RNG it doesnt matter if I farm for 5min or for 500min.
Thats the main problem of ToS that you are always forced to do anything, instead of beeing free to choose do what you want. In this sense RO was totally free, even to a point that some got lost and didn’t knew what to do at all.
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Completely agree with you. The current system we have on iToS with (1/(DPK-Kills)) is much better than both only rng and only dpk. They would better increase drop chance and amount needed(for some another loot). Like they are doing with incomplete cubes.
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This would be fine if they increased spawn rates + channels too. I expect more people per channel fighting for each room since this is giving them more legitimate excuse to KS now. It only takes 1-2 good dps with a base camp to clear all the rooms before anyone can touch a mob. Anyway I could be very well wrong. Let’s hope for the best lel
Most people don’t play a game to learn its hidden mechanics, they just want to have fun.
I know quite a few people who’d rather be playing the game, not even understanding their build is ‘not optimal’ or whatever the endgame players will call it, and have fun than be trying to googling guides on the game.
That’s the opposite of extreme DPK value/low % drops, the highly common item but absurd amount required.
It kills the motivation to even start working on that farm, rather than causes frustration from lack of progress.
Overall it’s less about the system itself and more on the execution/balancing.
For example, using that absurd amount required way, I’ll use an example from another game: Warframe.
So in warframe, there’s clan (guild) researches that any members can contribute to the research amount to unlock the item for anyone in the clan to purchase.
There’s a gun called Hema that had an absurd amount of a material required.
It was a mistake, but one that the Dev chose not to fix in the end and riled up quite a lot of player.
The thing is, the amount itself was certainly high, but the real issue was how to obtain that resource.
Out of the whole map, only 2 location have access to that resource, one location have it as insanely rare drop, while the other disabled auto-matching.
If that gun had use any of the other 2 ‘rare’ resources that is readily available everywhere else? People might raised an eyebrow, but it wouldn’t cause a uproar, because people would have those things available just through playing the game normally.
The point is that it’s possible to make it work, just that you have to make it to the combined experience is enjoyable.
Absurdly low chance to obtain? Either makes it something really powerful that it feels worth the effort, or makes it something that doesn’t impact gameplay so it’s more of a surprise bonus (like cosmetics)
High amount required? Makes it commonly available from various sources so players isn’t stuck in one area (like the kill count achievement, or in a way, silver) and that the thing does not burdens the player in anyway (i.e. silver have no weight so you can have however much you want without worries of weight limit)
Or to use ToS example:
Cafrisun always drop a piece of the set - worth waiting/finding the rare spawn.
Manahas does not always drop from the specific mob - sigh…
This. Most maps feel barren and their DPK values don’t reflect their spawn count.
All those math above about current DPK possibility are under the consumption of “everyone are working the same amount of time.”
Let’s say, there’s a guy who only have an hour of hunt and have to leave for 2 hrs and come back after that. The other is 4 hours straight. In the first hour, the item did not drop for both of them and one has to leave. 5 mins later, the thing dropped. The possibility for the item to drop are the same for both of them? Yes, in the first hour, what about the 5 mins after the guy leave, the one who got the drop has 1/(DPK - the sum of their total hunt) chance. If this is not “working for the other guy” means, what does it means? lol
I get what you mean, but you do know that you can farm 5 minutes and hope to roll your 0.01%. You are entitled to stay to make use of the fail-safe system. So you would prefer always taking longer (in the long run) to drop the item instead of having increased chances over time?
It is counter-intuitive, but all of you who dislike the topdown are asking for reduced drop rates.
Nobody forces you to stay for a failsafe drop. For all you know anyone can drop the item at any time resetting the failsafe counter without you knowing it.
Those people are not going in the forums complaining about mechanics they don’t understand.
And as hard as it is to drop those, I think this is what is intended. Those are the best weapons in game. It is supposed to be hard to get. Also, you can clear most of ET with a decently upgraded and trans 1 practo weapon. And those are super easy to make. Maybe a week and a half of crystal mines…
But I can see there are not much alternatives for Phada, for example.
Yet we get complaints from people who supposedly read the Practo guide about losing their practo because they forgot to reform Mystic Cubes.
So it’s not like people who ‘read’ guides actually understand them either.
Also, last I check practo itself is not ‘easy’ to get, since it’s only one attempt a day and people can spend months waiting for one.
As for Phada’s alternatives. Gladiator’s Band, the Hethran Badge thing, Sissel, the upcoming Practo accessories.
Yes I’ll count the herthran one as Phada alternatives if you’re going to count the HG drop as the same ‘best weapons’ category as orange/ET stuffs.
And that’s exactly what makes him correct them and say “you don’t know how the system works”. Ok, you have concerns about something, right, it’s fine, share it or whatever. If you have concerns about something that’s actually not there, someone has to tell them that they’re thiking the wrong way, right?
About the other guy who said
Well, the other guy had to leave. With a pure rng he wouldn’t have dropped it either. Therefore, in one scenario he was working for himself, raising his own chances with each kill, and receiving the benefits from the other guy’s efforts, 'cause the other guy was actually raising his chances too. Then when he left, his work benefited the other guy. Guess what? When he comes back, he may arrive with a juicy 100% chance on his first kill, so yeah, “he worked for the other guy” and “the other guy worked for him”.
In the other scenario, he didn’t work for himself, the other guy didn’t work for him, and when he left, well, he didn’t work for the other guy too. Great, he didn’t drop, the other guy didn’t drop, no one is happy, no efforts got into account 'cause you got a “■■■■ you” fom the system itself, it’s rng. You may work 4 hours straight, all alone and still get absolutely nothing.
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so the drop rate is % based now like other games? Great 
! I just hope theyre not like .000001% drop chances.
Well, it actually currently is. The problem is exactly that it’s curretly like 0,00000001%, not the system itself. The pure rng is apparently on test, so… no, we don’t have pure rng here yet.
We also don’t know what’s the new drop rate, so people defending the old DPK with that logic can have it thrown right back at them as well.
Sure, if it’s quite literally changed from 1/20000 DPK to just 1/20000 %, the old way is better. But if, say, it went from 1/20000 DPK to, say, 1/5000 (still very low), I think I’d rather like the new odds given that the old way would requires 15000 kills to occur before it even reach that odd.
Anyway, rather than DPK vs RNG (if done properly, from a player’s perspective you won’t notice the difference anyway), I think for me the bigger thing for this patch is the introduction of cube frags.
If the drop rate I’ve heard is anything to go by, it’ll at the very least reward players without multiple hours to invest into grinding HG.
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You are not very good with math, are you? 1k DPK will be 0.1%
10k PDK will be 0,01%. A chance of card to drop in RO. Absolutely acceptable chance.
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LOL do you even understand why RO has drop rate multipliers and real pay to win cash shop? It’s because the drop rate sucks!!! I played RO back in 2004, cards like skeleton soldier card are so expensive for newbies that you have to farm it yourself and it will take you days before you get 3 drops for your 3 slotted jur.
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And that is why TOS are doing this, to make future gambling cubes more attractive to buy. Get it? Like some idiots here like to say, it aren’t pay to win if you can farm it normally, doesn’t matter if the drop rate is 0.000001%, you still can get it “normally”.