Any videos of Hunter and Cannoneer together?
I’m certainly not speaking on behalf of the developers, but this is the 2nd time in like a week someone has accused me of something I’ve said being “just like, my opinion, man” and not logically consistent with the changes the developers are making.
You are framing this so hard in the current meta that you can’t even think properly. Any of those classes can be thought about as independent entities–they need to have their own uniqueness, or else every class is just the same and everything is redundant. Obviously synergies between classes are considered, but are you really going to say that cryo only works with one other class and that cryo absolutely MUST have that class in order to work correctly? Why would you think that of the handful you chose, and not others? Rebuild, by IMC’s exact words, is to stop the 20 or so cookie cutter nonsense builds that people keep playing because for as many classes as there are, people are uncreative and uninterested in playing any combination.
There are trees. They branch out to many different options and possibilities. That’s the point.
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There’s no accusation here, if it’s what you think, it’s what you think. I agree on one thing, now all jobs are “3 circles locked” mean they obviously work better as standalones. But it doesn’t change how the jobs were designed after all. Before you were picking Cryo3 Psycho3 and Enchanter 3, it’s still the same in the new system, the 3 jobs need at least another job to really function (but change Enchanter for Taoist T-T).
I’m known to never follow meta, so, I don’t think so. And please, don’t act like a victim like I accused you of “something” and then accuse me on this -_-"…
In lvl 300+ content, obviously YES. Or show me please, a Cryo soloing CM5 by only using Cryo skills. Might work, yes, I’m not saying Cryo alone cannot do anything, just saying every job lack something. Cleric alone could solo CM5 too, just need a decade.
Yeh, it’s about the problem of meta builds because of the actual system. Now every job can be picked at any moment (except Hidden ones), so they were forced to rework factors of every skills in order to balance every job. Still, Cryo is the same as before, they changed nothing on this job, they only increased possibilites for every build.
And it’s my point lol.
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then whats the scaling of the skill? Does it pass 1k lightning damage? All the videos i have seen so far out of ktest it doesn’t even pass 1k lightning damage.
Plus the skill tool tips have been data mined already
How could someone miss the point by this much?
It’s alarming.
Simply explain then. When you changed my words I don’t think I talked to you like that. Be respectful, thanks.
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Re:build still caters the same cookie-cutter mentality that pre-Re:build did.
Sure, Classes were rearranged, attributes&skills removed and/or added and Classes became more unique by enforcing that each of them has their talent/role, but it didn’t change the fact that you still can not do anything without DPS.
Challenge Mode is unchanged, endgame content is unchanged, Saalus is pretty much unchanged, uphill is unchanged.
Tell me how an Oracle, Pardoner or Chronomancer is going to contribute here?
If Re:build was created in an idealistic way that promotes choosing support over damage because you still have some ingame viability, then yeah, Re:build could’ve been great.
But looking at the way the developers created Classes without any damage at all when all the content requires damage to be cleared and promote them to be viable alternatives for builds, I can only giggle sarcastically.
Imagine going to 330 dungeon with 5 Pardoner>Oracle>Priests.
That’s the point where the whole Re:build thing collapses.
These builds are just not viable for anything unless they are carried through content in exchange for Heal & protection.
In my opinion the whole notion of 560 build options is just an illusion the developers wanted to sell the players. We still have weapon restrictions on Swordsman,Archer and now even Scout that hinder build freedom unless you invest in 2-3 weapons while Cleric and partially Wizard suffer from support Classes that can’t do anything on their own.
Wizard is, of all base Class trees probably the most free and restriction-less, but aside of that TOS still has the same issues it had previously. Some issues even intensified.
This is why it is, for the sake of the game and a good gameplay experience, important that every Class on its own is viable to participate in all the content the game provides. Every Class needs to offer some basic utility or support options and some damage so you can have these 560 build options.
Sure, some builds will be weaker (inevitably), but the balance should try to lessen the gap instead of increasing it (which just so happened by introducing overpriced enhancement attributes to improve certain support/utility skills while leaving other skills completely without any attributes at all).
This is where Re:build is logically flawed and where the new system shipwrecks directly after setting sails.
Every choice you make inevitably narrows down the following options drastically to keep your character viable for the game.
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I can answer some of your concerns, and in others i share the feeling…
Regarding the classes you mention
Chrono is strictly to be paired with other class and/or party, same with pardoner and oracle…
Its true that they need another class with dmg or being in party, but by no means they dont “contribute” towards the benefit of the party…
Chrono have pass, and stop for critical moments, where party need CD, in particular for heal, that it may be a thing now…
Pardoner have another source of healing, sure, pala is better, but pardoner is still an option that may be better in certain situations…
Oracle is a power house now, with debuff that gives extra % in dmg, have DM and one of the few (if not only) invulnerability…
All in all the range of viable options increased by a LOT in RE, some combinations of classes will always be superior to others, but overall the gap is narrower in RE than pre RE…
Also… all the def of mobs got reduced by a LOT, like velco with less than 3k def, and regular mob around 1k def, making most content accesible with mid range gear (including velco), and ppl with extreme gear will just be even easier…
And IF they do something with the net code, or the mechanics of PvP, which i believe will be hard next to imposible, the true end game will shift to PvP events be it boruta or territories…
Basically the game turned out more casual allowing more diversity and top player will be even better in RE…
I believe overall is a win for the general player of ToS and a “loss” for hardcore where to find the top comp be it pve or pvp will take a lot of time, but maybe they will like that process, just maybe…
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This last part is so wrong. You can obviously see a class by itself. Synergies are very valuable, but still secondary when it comes to class balance and utility. That’s actually one of the most important points of the horizontal system they are implementing. Gaming.checho made some very good points about this while I was typing.
And for an easy explanation: every class will have their weaknesses and strengths, that’s where the whole build synergy comes to play (and that’s where I agree with you and kinda understand your thinking), letting you go for a well rounded character (building mixed spells) or make it a specialist (be it a boss killer, an AoE powerhouse, a full time healer, etc); but still, even when the power of your character will come from the whole build (skill and stat-wise), you can still balance or judge the potential of every class by itself (damage, CC, synergy with its own abilities, etc). That’s where you can (and should) see every class separated from the whole build/party.
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Yes…
Also… if you have google chrome, you can translate the database of rjgtav https://tos.guru/ktest/simulator
If you have doubts on how to do the autotranslate pm me in forum, i can tell you in more detail…
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Lots of Cleric skills show usable-on-mount in tosguru, is that correct?
well… this
20characters
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it was always like that I think…but you know… to be able to use skills mounted we need a mounted class first with a mount attribute… and that didn’t happen yet :F
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Ok their needs to be the holy trifecta of tank/support/dps to some extent so games can function because if you give every class the ability to do everything and homogenise them than you just pick the best out of the 3 with out the need of the other 2.
What your asking is pure insanity. A healer should have every right to go full healer across all of the ranks to be able to keep their party alive in end game content.
The same how we currently have full support wizards that provide a group with so much more dps that those 3 dps can out dps 5-6 dps if they were equally geared.
If you think end game content is cm5 and your daily 3 dungeons then your playing the game wrong and really a rainbow build could still do the 330 dungeon effectively with reasonable gear investment.
Your are suppose to balance the game around end game content so the player can discover what is good and what is bad over the time by gaining experience in paying the game. In turn creating a meta for end game.
Not every build/class is suppose to be made equally because of these simple things.
The only problem i see mainly with the upcoming re:build changes is auto stats for the HuBriD BuILdS everyone seems to want to do.
But i do agree with your statement on attribute costs, they should have reduced the costs further between rank 5 and 6.
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I mostly agree with you but one of your examples is a little bit extreme :
In any game you can’t consider to run a dungeon with a full support team, unless the game provide low/medium DPS skills to full support classes. The idea is to open builds on more possibilites, but they certainly don’t have the pretention to make every build viable. Players still have their job to do in the creation part.
I think people might consider to take Pardoner on a playable character, and not only an afk shop character. And in that, Re:build didn’t fail for me.
I think we just don’t really talk about the same thing here. “Think” =/= “see”. I obviously see Cryo by itself, but can’t think about Cryo alone in game. I could if I was not aware of the system, but I am. And for synergies it seems developers doesn’t put them on a secondary spot for some classes (not all it’s sure). When you see ToS history, they never stopped to create more and more synergies between classes in their balance patch note (Kneeling Shot for Canon, Lightning damage increased on frost target without any attribute, Psycho new skill to make monsters “ground-type”, Enchanter attributes with Psycho…). And just remember how OP Cryo + Psycho was during CBT, for me it started at this right moment. You can’t balance the game by considering a class alone. Balance a class ok, but not the entire game.
1 Balance Cryo < 2 Balance Cryo by testing it with each class of the tree and builds from other trees.
Now there are examples you really, really can’t consider alone : Chaplain needs 3 circles of Priest in the actual system, few Pardoner skills are useless without other jobs like Krivis/Paladin/Priest.
And after all there are many examples you can totally consider alone, because in their case, synergy is secondary :
Exorcist, Zealot, Inquisitor, Druid, Pyro, Doppel…
So I half agree with you, I would say there are classes you can consider alone and some classes you can’t totally consider alone (most of “support” or “utility” classes, Diev being a counter example). But I’m really sorry, I’ll stick to my idea, Cryo can’t be considered alone because it’s an utility type class, and the skills of this class are completely made to support your own build + other player builds in your team. Synergy add to much to Cryo, and I doubt someone developped Cryo without thinking about other classes that could go with it : “let’s create a mage that can freeze enemy forever… for the purpose of… freezing, putting an Ice wall here tooo… block monsters” (especially Cryo prerework).
tl;dr I’am a weirdo
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Oh ok. I was struggling to picture Kagura on mount. Thank you.
My take on Re:build currently. Concept of the 1+3 circle build is great but it needs quite a fair bit of extra work to sell the idea.
Main impression: It feels that the number of build variance is much much lower than the current pre:rebuild we are playing. I just don’t feel the 560 variations of builds IMC is selling for the rebuild.
With the class rework, it gives this feeling that within each base class there are specific subgroups, groups of classes that work well but don’t really work with the other groups.
For example in the scout tree, Enchanter don’t gel well with SR nor BM. Its signature skill Lightning Hands can’t be used with Limacon (overwrite each other) and its secondary hand nature makes Dual Gun Stance (main hand buff) sad.
This makes Enchanter - BM - SR build really clunky to play, can’t really maximise the build without focusing on one and neutering the other 2 classes.
Next is the lack of multi-class synergy, most of the classes in Re:build have only 1 synergy link with 1 other class. This further reduces the diversity of builds as players who want their builds to work well together have limited choices. Like with Paladin Inquisitor, there’s no other choice to replace either as viable dps alternative.
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If the game wants to tout its concept of build variance, there is a need for more synergies within classes. Make each class have skill synergies with 3 to 4 other classes. This will increase the diversity of builds.
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I would happily group up with any one of the 560 Swordsman, 560 Wizard, 560 Cleric, 220 Archer, 165 Scout character builds. Some would be really obscure, and I like obscurity in an mmo.
But for each of my friend’s builds, I would naturally pick a complimenting character from my barrack.
I like to think there really are 560 Swordsman builds, only there aren’t ( 560 + 560 + 560 + 220 + 165 ) ^ 5 = 37 549 164 666 540 625 viable groups. Why wouldn’t you bring a character that smoothens up the group synergy.
Also I will make a point in noting that Archer (12 classes) and Scout (11 classes) have much less classes in their tree compared to Swordsman, Wizard, and Cleric (16 classes).
If you feel Archer or Scout lacks diversity, it’s only logical.
The Re:Build format has only just started, and I am excited how the 5 trees will grow out of its clunky infancy.
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When you have been advocating for class synergy the past 2 weeks because classes on rebuild have fewer classes to synergies with because of auto stats and skill scaling/mechanics. But half the community is telling u its fine.
And i used a simple example of chaplain/monk/+another physical cleric class.
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