Tree of Savior Forum

iDreamy's Guide to Scout C3

Class and Rank Archer
#451

This is probably the 99999th time I will repeat this but crit rate investment in this build is not ignored. Reason why it had Archer C2 in the first place. I’ll repeat, as I “already” explained on the stat distribution section, STR just grows too fast and for gearing, stacking crit rate gives you the best returns.

You might say, well I’m just investing on 100 DEX but if you actually look at how it will affect your STR and compare it to someone with a pure STR build. The difference is a massive 411 vs 625. Yes, that’s just 100 point investment difference, but as I’ve explained “already”, STR grows just waaay too fast making it the most optimal stat investment for this build especially since there’s Rogue C1.

For gearing, there are Sissel Bracelets, Max Petamion, costumes and a special mention to Green Gems as they give massive amount of crit rate. These are all affected by Swift Step: Critical to boost your natural crit chance to decent levels while Sneak Hit pushes it to 100% if you’re hitting from behind.

Not really getting for the frenzy effect. I’m getting it for the crit rate and patk that scales really well for Split Arrow.

#452

When you say ‘decent levels’ what figure do you have in mind?

Appreciate all the input btw! :slight_smile:

#453

Watch this video,

That’s a pure STR QS C3 with almost 400 crit rate from gears alone.

1 Like
#454

Again please dont take this the wrong way, just want to pick your brain a bit.
Playing around on stat calc. (30 bonus stat points at 280)
74points in dex = 91dex = 91crit
those same 74points in str = 162str= 162patk/crit atk

Max stat on headgears = 14crit 42patk 63crit atk
So to get the equivelent amount of str on headgears you need 3.85 patk rolls and 2.57crit atk rolls which means that 6.24 max rolls would make up for the loss of points allocated in str.
It would take 6.5 rolls to do the same for crit rate
Simply put your slightly better off trying to make up for loss str then dex with headgears.
Although there’s no contest from ruby/star compared to the crit rate of emerald gems.
Ofc this doesnt take into account the hard caps on dex(acc/eva/c.rate) or the relationship between crit rate, crit chance, patk and crit dmg.

Suppose you also need to take into acount the 70% crit from Sneak hit but that depends alot on staying behind the target but if you rely on that too much and build around that but cant consistently position yourself behind the target you could possibly gimp your DPS.

Also I’m curious with Swift Step and Sneak hit, is it % crit rate or crit chance as in does it
A. Increase your crit rate stat by 25/70% (eg. 400crit rate +25% = 500crit rate)
B. Increase the chance you land a critical hit by 25/70% (eg. 50% chance to crit x 1.25 = 62.5% chance to crit)
C. Increase your crit chance by a static 25/70% (eg. 50% chance to crit + 25% = 75% chance to crit).

#455

Uhhh … isn’t that why I was suggesting on the gears section to get Phy Atk, Crit Atk then HP/Crit Rate? I’m not trying to offend or anything as well but I would really really “really” appreciate if people read the whole guide first before shooting questions.

I also explained why HP can be an option instead of Crit rate due to diminished returns of stacking more crit rate when there’s already Sneak Hit.

Your A and B is technically the same. It does work like that for Swift Step: Critical. Sneak Hit works like C.

Thread Update: Updated “How does Capture work?” on FAQs Section.

#456

I get that crit rate from Sneak Hit helps you crit all the time, but that may work with boss fights and barrage spam after Feint. What about the situations where you spam Split Shot? You don’t do backstab dmg then at all, at least you don’t focus on this to not gimp your killing ratio. Your crit rate will only take bonus from Swift Step then, isn’t that right? How much crit % you have then with just Swift Step?

#457

The video I linked has almost 400 crit rate even though pure STR built. 400 crit rate considering enemy has 0 crit resist, that’s 60% chance to crit w/o Swift Step yet. With Swift Step, that’s 75% crit chance. More than enough for me.

#458

I did read, you also mentioned other builds with dex ratios. But the video you linked although I cant read the language, they appear to be wearing crit rate on their headgears.
Just every guide i read seems to be go pure str and make it up the crit rate with gears.
Understandly sneak hits 70% crit chance heavily skews this build towards full str but at the same time also requires you to stay behind the target which seems easier said then done when playing solo.

So with 0dex investment at 280
your looking at 305 or 320(with Virtov gloves) crit rate
Base(65) +2x Sissel(37x2) +2xlvl6 Gem(32x2) +1xlvl6 Gem(42) + Mana2 (35) + Max Peta(14) +Rokas Leather Armor(8) +Roxona Gloves(3) or Virtov Gloves(18)
320x42/280=48%crit rate on mob with 0crit resist.
Thats 60% crit with swift step.
With +7 gems instead thats an extra 39crit rate or 5.85 crit chance(7.3 with swift step)
Honestly I’m not sure why there crits so high, I’m assuming its 399 but they have no gems in their didel :confused:

Maybe you can help me out here, cause yeah I agree 75% without sneak hit seems plenty, 60% may be on the low side though depending on how often you can stay behind the target.

#459

Because is the best way to go if you really want to optimize your DPS endgame.

#460

You forgot the crit rate hair accessories and crit rate from collections. BTW if you watched the vid you’d see their didel slotted with 2x Lv6 gems and their crit rate is 382 btw.

#461

btw with the levelling tips, would viper be better than khasti bow? since I already have it from a friend of mine, or khasti would be give a better overall damage?

#462

Split Arrow would do significantly less damage with a Viper Bow. Try selling the Viper instead and buy a Khasti, that’s alot better to do if you ask me.

#463

So decided to have some fun and do some maths.
With the assumption that the crit formula is
(Atk+skill atk) x 1.5 + crit dmg (+whatever else which i didnt bother to include cause it should be the same on both crit vs non crit. eg, 278elect prop atk is gonna add 278dmg on crit and non crit so it wont make any difference)

I used the stats from the QS linked in the video above.
382 crit rate
862 crit atk
1708-1738atk

They seem to be very well geared so they seemed to be a good test subject Although i couldnt account for 9str(collection maybe?) I did 2 calcs
SubjectA was full str SubjectB was 100dex(74stat points) rest str.
Did this with 30 bonus stats so 309 total stat points
This was done with Flare Shot lvl15(628dmg)

SubjectA 309str = 3789.9875 average hit
SubjectB 235str 74dex = 3743.385 average hit

All in all very minimal difference in dmg. I’d probably say headgear choice would have just as big of an impact on which one is better and if they had 2patk headgears rather then crit rate SubjectB may have been more DPS.

That being said Flare Shot is the highest base dmg skill for this build and with Sneak Hit, I’d say Full str wins in terms of DPS potential without sneak hit. By potential i mean not including chance to hit or time spent running around rather then dodge tanking.

Did same thing but with Scouts Cross fire lvl15
Full str : 5706.301875
100dex : 5777.5396875

As you can see the value of crit rate becomes more and more relevant as atk increases.

Anyways I’m not 100% I got that formula correct i did:
(Atk x 1.5 + crit dmg) x crit chance + atk x chance not to crit

I would like to do that calc with more run of the mill gears. Not everyone is going to be using +6/7gems and a +14 didel.

#464

I decided to do the maths using the character of the video you linked earlier and with endgame gears full str is better for this build.

If I get time tomorrow i’ll do the same thing for more common gears. On my server your talking about over 20kk of gears just to get your crit to a reasonable rate and thats not including saving money for skill enhances or even lvling to 170 with minimal crit rate.

I know sneak hit adds a massive 70% crit chance but i do feel it will be unreliable at times so thinking it might be worthwile doing the calc with gear aimed more at casuals to see if there’s some sort of sweet spot for dex.
Anyways i did the maths in the post above this.

#465

Yea I was reading and was making some analyzation. I couldn’t say if the calculations were accurate or not but one thing is for sure, there will be alot lesser damage to get multiplied once enemy defense is taken into account and its pretty much a given that higher level enemies will have higher defense, take example a Blue Harugal, it has 346 defense.

There’s also the fact that Split Arrow is using a T0 modifier which makes increasing PATK scale alot better since this modifier multiplies the overall base before it gets reduced by defense.

You were also comparing skills with already huge damage output with the help of skill damage but one of my best damaging skills includes Feint+Barrage which is composed mainly of attack modifiers than skill damage.

I wouldn’t say Sneak Hit is completely reliable as well but with the current cycle of my skills, I do feel alot significant DPS increase coming from Sneak Hit especially due to the fact that it’s easy and fast to do 3x Barrage behind the boss. When you also consider the fact that when Flare Shot, Barrage and Multi-Shot are all on cooldown, I could only spam Split Arrow, what I’m trying to say here is it’s actually alot better to guarantee a full crit on the core skills than having fillers be able to do alot more constant crits. It’s the difference of sole theorycrafting compared to real in-game experience.

#466

Needle Blow and Wugong Gu tick at 0.5s intervals

#467

Are you sure? My CBT2 tests says otherwise. Was it ninja buffed? Vid?

Edit: Nevermind, did a quick google

It does tick at .5s intervals now.

#468

Enemy def would make no difference in dex vs str. It would affect over all DPS but not rather or not crit is more effective.
Using 346 as an example it would be
(Critical DMG -def) x crit rate + (Non Critical DMG-def) x chance not to crit
Since crit chance + chance not to crit = 100% you can just add it at the end along with other dmg that isnt affected by the crit modifier.
Only time this would not be true would be if the targets def was higher then the non critical dmg making non critical hits = 1.
edit: looks like I’m wrong about how def works. Let me double check it D;

T0 modifiers are multiplicative of atk so would hold the same weight on both critical hits and non critical hits. atk x t0 x crit = atk x crit x t0
So if split arrow does 3k normal and 5k crits on first target, you can simply double that value for 6k normal and 10k crits on second target.

I did stat that the higher the atk value the more relevant crit atk becomes. This is one of the reasons i chose flare shot is because it has one of your highest base atks so if str proved better DPS it would be safe to say all other skills in this build would follow suit.

That being said, pure str builds require almost entirely on crit from gears. The difference in damage between the 382crit they get from gears and having no crit from gears is roughly a 60% increase in DPS. Personally i thought this may be something of interest to you for your guide as not everyone is going to be running around with 6/7star gems and +14 didel grand cross. And assuming my maths is right, the difference between full str and 100dex flare shot without taking into consideration sneak hit is minimal at best.

Also my thing with Sneak hit wasnt so much to do with bossing but rather PVE farming. Again I have no experience but I cant see Sneak hit being very useful for farming something like Black Colifly where trying to position yourself behind every mob would just be a huge waste of time.

Anyways, if you’d like I can post my findings on str vs dex here tomorrow. I like the build so going to use it so more so doing this for myself but happy to share the results.

#469

It would. Before any modifier kicks in (except T0) including crit damage, defense already reduces the attackmodifier+skilldamage combined. The lesser there is to multiply, the lesser the effectiveness of crit rate becomes. I would quote yourself on that,

Main reason why this is true to skills like Snipe, Cannon Blast, etc. The high fixed skill damage makes stacking patk give diminished returns.

Afterall, realistically speaking, in-game you’d definitely feel those skills doing a whole lot less damage if it doesnt crit.

You should use this,
(((((Skill Attack + Effective Attack) + (random(0% … 100%) * Magic Amplification)) * (100% + T0)) - ((Effective Defense * (100% + Level Penalty)) + Elemental Resistance)) * (100% + (0 or 50% if crit)) + (0 or Critical Attack) + Extra Elemental Attack + Enemy Specific Damage) * (100% + T1) * (100% + T2) * (100% + T3) * (100% + Enhance) + Bonus Damage

It shows how defense reduction comes in first before crit damage so your calculation is wrong.

Same goes for your T0 argument because you think defense is reduced later.

You should redo your calculations before wasting too much time on a wrong formula.

I appreciate the help by the way. Although this won’t really go anywhere as long as your damage formula is wrong.

#470

yeah using that formula. I was having trouble reading it bc of all the brackets and having to slide it, i lost track of whats what so copied onto notepad where i can see it properly and have another look at it, since yeah it does appear def is applied before crit, giving def a 50% extra value on critical hits.

edit:
If i got this the simplied version should be
(Skill Attack + Attack * (100% + T0)) - (Defense+ Elemental Resistance) * (100% + (0 or 50% if crit)) + (0 or Critical Attack)
So if i was to ignore t0 multiplier
(Skill atk + attack - def - elemental resistance) x 1.5 on crit + crit atk
And now I see where i went wrong with to t0.
Sorry to have doubted you, seems I completely misunderstood the formula here.