Tree of Savior Forum

Gold Coins from Night market event

It’s not a “list of design decisions that I personally don’t like”, it’s a fact that IMC has throughly nerfed the content people enjoy doing. They nerfed one of the early grind spots like @Goldie pointed out and you even recognized it.

They nerfed monster card albums since they introduced it. First they nerfed the drop rate in the following week, then they changed them to drop only inside hunting grounds because people were still droping albums during crafting materials farming sessions. More recently, on the korean servers, they made bosses summoned from card albums not drop their cards with 100% chance anymore, now they’ll either drop their card or a 100 exp enhancing card. I don’t participate in card album events organized by the players (I open them with my guilds), but every week I see many people in the shout chat doing it and people have fun with it. When we get that update, it’s going to be a little frustrating for players.

While there are many silver sinks in the game, they’re constantly nerfing legitimate ways to farm silver. Before the dungeon rework, a single DG170 run would reward you with 330k silver, now we can get up to 220k per run. At least it’s worth to do it in a party instead of soloing, but still, it’s less silver. And since people are doing DG300 every day to get their daily income, IMC is going to put diminishing returns on silver rewards based on the difference between your character’s level and the dungeon’s. Open maps also give low silver if you farm actively. Only Necromancers farming AFK with macros enjoy silver farming (as anyone can see by checking it on the Oracle Master).

The lack of effective action against bots is another example that makes things less enjoyable in this game. The current character progression is mainly based on item grinding (enhancing attributes come last because lvl 60 is enough considering cost efficiency, so you don’t need to get lvl 100 attributes that early), so you could make good profit in the market, but it’s hard to compete against bots. They don’t get tired from long farming sessions and they’re responsible for the drop in the prices of pretty much all items with high demand. So what else can players do? Well, they farm Blessed Shards by spamming Saalus runs or running around with a SR on lower level hunting grounds. It’s a bit too late to take care of this issue, but if IMC still cares about it, it’s time to put account creation restrictions. Trading restrictions for new players are meaningless when it’s so easy to make a new Steam account to put up your gold seller bot or a Necro macrobot in Solitary Cells.

The Get Ahead event is another factor that harms the gaming experience in ToS. Fact: it makes players skip a large portion of the game’s content, they reach the endgame with little experience and knowledge about the game’s mechanics and how other classes work and the game turns upside down when new players have to shift from a very fast progression to the item grinding wall in a very slow pace in the game. My personal experience: I used to tell newbies in my guild to participate in the Get Ahead event so they could catch up with the oldest members in the guild to play together with them. They got bored really fast and all those players quit. Then I started telling people to think twice and maybe leveling up in a slower pace could be more enjoyable, but they always end up falling for the temptation to reach lvl 300+ in just a few days.

(Ugh, I already wrote a long essay) Well, finally. You may disagree with my points, but all those bad decisions or even their lack of action is making people play ToS less. The game has improved in many points and it’s a lot better compared to the Jan-Feb period from last year, but the player behavior changed a lot since then as you can verify by crossing data CCU and Total Population. While the game was worse last year, logging in just for your dailies became the norm between the majority of players, so they’re spending less time on ToS compared to before and IMC is at fault for this. So yeah, that’s why I believe they don’t like when we’re enjoying playing ToS and why I believe they’ll also make it difficult to get gold coins for the current event.

“Nonsense”, “dumb”, “outrageous”, “obviously false” and “preposterous” aren’t friendly words.

You’re calling me a troll just because I called you one? Nice tu quoque falllacy you got there. Here’s a definition of trolling:

Now please stop your personal crusade against me. Everyday many people post negative opinions about IMC and yet it’s after me you’re coming at just because you still resent our failed discussions in previous threads.


Did you call me a troll? I must have missed it. But no, I called you a troll because you made this statement:

they hate when we’re having a good time playing this game

Which is blatantly false. No game developer hates people having fun playing their game. You aren’t stupid, you obviously do not truly believe this. IMC would not be making so many changes users have requested over the years if they really hated people njoying their game. So when you post something outrageous, that you do not truly believe, that is trolling.

As for your laundry list, I’ve already stated that I do not agree with every decision IMC makes. Most of your complaints are ones I share, and many members of the community agree with. But that does not constitute proof that IMC hates players enjoying their game. At all.

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Don’t interpret it literally.
Would it trigger you less if he said something like

before IMC decides to nerf the drop rate or completely remove gold coins from Uphill since they have a bad habit of nerfing, restricting and limiting fun?

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I’m really glad to read this. I hope we can have friendlier discussions in the future. I’m not one of the forum trolls nor one of the dumb doomposters that insist that this game is dead even after it survived for more than 2 years without being properly advertised. I can see how much you like this game and I like it too despite it not being what it seems like when I make that kind of post.
Ah, and keep up your good work reporting Necros using macros in your server.


every day i wake up in the morning to check on previously harmless looking posts only to realize a lot of happenings while i was asleep

thinking about this, a lot of mmo’s do this doomsday major update (satan morroc for RO). why not a rebuilding a ruined kingdom major update?

shameless sheetposting-like guild promotion

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You’re kidding right? The least you could do is a little research if you don’t know about it. In addition to what everyone already said, back in the game’s early days when the population was at its highest, they changed the respawn timer of all mobs from individual to group respawn. And each group had a respawn timer that was as high as 5 min per group. This was when people actually did quests and explored maps. Lower level maps were basically people camping and competing to kill mobs to complete quests and high level maps above level 100 were desolated wastelands with low mob destiny and high mob respawn timers. It’s funny because they actually upped the mob density at one point and then nerfed it back for no reason.

It was revised after people complaining about it for the longest time. Were you even around when DPK was an issue? When people complain about something they’re haters and when it actually get fixed months and months later you use it as “proof” that IMC knows what they’re doing. :joy:

The fact that you think trade restrictions actually affect gold sellers more than it hurts players is hilarious. The trade restrictions is one of the biggest reason players cited to why they quit TOS in its early days and it took a huge toll on the player population. If you played during this time maybe you’d actually know.

Soon after the patch finished to fix an exploit, many threads popped up addressing the issue that the DPK exploit was happening within minutes and IMC addressed nothing. People hunted DPK items EVERYDAY during this time, there was no sure fire way to know who was actually exploiting the bug. They banned many players who were simply just hunting items as part of their routine. Did you even play during this time?

I was just trying to explain the reasoning behind his post. I did NOT insult you at all in my original post, so I don’t know why you’re so offended, angry, and defensive about my post. Don’t pop a vein over this.


He’s saying about what you said:

They didn’t actually ban people but restrict them to gather stuff. They only banned a few select ones that heavily abused stuff.

They could have handled the situation better (towards more removal/bans). And they did some errors (again, on the part of who heavily abused it).

But they didn’t actually ban innocent people nor people that didn’t do much.

If you’re going to argue about what was the few days restriction value against a true 15-30~perm days ban value, well, that’s another topic.

But here @nojustnotos is pretty right here:

  1. The ban of innocent people during DPK bug never happened.
  2. People are making stuff up or overestimating the few days restriction.

And if you’re talking about who actually got banned. Well. All in-game bugs are created by the devs (unless caused by third-party dependencies).

And… well, you’re actually supposed to not abuse bugs if they’re found. So it’s a deserved ban lol

Yes. I was. I saw how @STAFF_Yuri listened to players and put a good effort into making a bridge to devs to talk about DPK.

Got us interviews on DPK changes. Seems they really pressed devs about it.

Now let’s talk about design changes…

Before anything I want to share this since it’s a hot topic:

In a summary: Monster Hunter: World has a cutscene bug that annoys a lot of people and they’re complaining a lot about it.

What will you do to fix it?

This, that, these things, remove it entirely, change it to something else.

There’s a lot of options right?

Now let me ask, what are the consequences of each options?

What do you need to change to make each option work?

Is there a chance of breaking more things by doing these changes?

If we change will it actually be worse or better?

Should we just change something that’s working without design, planning, testing and analysis and put it live servers?

The same questions applies to both Monster Hunter: World and to ToS. You need time and planning for changes that are either too deep in the game so there’s no quick solution or it affects too many things or is too much game-changing if things go wrong (DPK bug as example).

It’s not that simple to change some stuff as some people might think.

Well, from certain points of view, it can affect gold sellers. We can’t be sure if these affect gold sellers or players more.

For players it’s actually easy to overcome restrictions, since they’re just annoying but in the end you can do what you want.

And I’d like to put a good emphasis: You don’t do that many things.

Trade restrictions (especially raw silver) makes gold selling far more complex and public, visible to other players.

Gold selling usually involves a lot of transactions. A single costumer isn’t profitable.

It’s common sense that a part of players wouldn’t risk their image to buy silver but could do it if it was in secret.

If you actually think about this, RMT could be an even worse issue without the restrictions in place.

We can argue until there’s no tomorrow. But this is just one of the many points of views. Just like “it affects players more than gold sellers” is another point of view.

It can actually affect gold sellers more if we consider it from the amount of trades each player can do alone against the amount of transactions/trades gold sellers does to many costumers.

Just like @nojustnotos could be right, you could be right. End of story: We don’t have data or tools to be sure of it in either way.

We sometimes have a tendency to overestimate things that annoys us or are bad, and see them as something bigger than they are.

It’s called negativity bias:

Because u solo it. With party, there will be more mobs spawn, so u can get more coins.

does soloing uphill still get you 50 reward points? ; w ;

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Yes, you get 50 uphill points after clearing all 30 stages regardless of how many people you have in your party.


No… I think I responded to the right post.

What? Why is this relevant to anything I was talking about. Read the first original post I replied to, my entire point was to say that IMC implemented a wonky DPK system that needed to be changed (and rightfully was). In no way did I say that they didn’t try or attempt to make a difference. I think it’s great they finally got rid of it. The original discussion was about how believable it would be for IMC to nerf gold coin drop rates, not about how competent they are or how well they respond to the player base; I think they got this one right.

You’re just proving the point I’m trying to make–every time someone makes any comment on IMC they’re automatically a hater to you. I was not hating on IMC in my original post, I was clarifying why people would believe IMC would actually nerf the drop rate in Uphill defense because they have a track record of implementing and doing things that the community disagrees with. You’re turning this into something it’s not.

This I agree with. They actually mostly restrict players instead of banning them, that was a mistake on my part. But the general sentiment still stands, they abandoned ship after the patch finished, ignored the plethora of threads that emerged right after the patch, and the chaos that ensued for the next couple hours because of that caused damage that put them in a compromising position that could only result in innocent players getting hurt for something dumb like buying an exploited item from the market place. You can’t really tell who abused the bug or not because like I said, people hunted DPK items every day, it’s a tricky situation.

AGAIN, the original point of my post was that given their track record, I wouldn’t put it past IMC to nerf the drop rate of gold coins. They nerfed spawn rates–that happened. They created bad DPK system–that happened. The trade restriction–that happened. Innocence players hurt in the HG exploit–that happened. I’m not trying to open an argument about every single point that I made because whether or not you agree with their methods, it happened regardless. This turned into something it didn’t need to lol. :grimacing:


Well, some calculation error happened somewhere :x

Nah. Don’t worry. You’re not a hater for me. But if you’re calling yourself one, I have nothing to do with it.

I’m talking with you just fine showing opinions explained in details in the most non-offensive way I can think.

Like, seriously, if I’m proving your point you’re free to quote the place I’m doing so.


I know it pretty well, don’t worry. Look at my quotes and text again. I made sure to be pretty specific to what I’m answering to:

A) From the flow of answers, even if wrong - not my fault here, you said to @nojustnotos: “You’re kidding right? …”]
-> I gave an answer exactly to “banned people who played HG during the bug they created.”

B) Already explained below.


Why would it be hilarious if it can be explained somehow? Why aren’t you the hilarious one?

It just depends on points of views. That’s why I answered that one. I kind of like answering to these things to add points of view when I see they’re constructive or can make people think.

Because you said:

-> I’m just refreshing memories and letting people know what happened if they weren’t here.

-> AFAIK people didn’t call others’ haters back then when people complained properly about DPK. Unless you’re displaying hater behavior when complaining or trolling or overestimating issues.

In the same way you can use bad things to say “IMC doesn’t know what they’re doing”.

I can also give examples and show that IMC knows what they’re doing and why something takes long to change and other limitations.

It’s not just because a design choice ended being bad later that you don’t know what you’re doing.

Just look at Monster Hunter: World. Great game right? People said it will take a lot of people from ToS.

Wait, the game has a serious design flaw and it’s taking too long to be solved.

So, does that means the MHW devs doesn’t know what they are doing?

Just a little edit.

I agree. But I currently have some free time and I kind of like to nitpick when people are overestimating negative stuff about game/IMC.

It’s not a “defensive” position as many people sees.

I just don’t like seeing people lying, overestimating stuff, and all that (mainly trolls/hues) used to do in the forums.

I have friends who stopped playing some time ago because the spam of negative things made bugs and flaws worse than they are. Some are back, some are not.

It definitely affects how people thinks about something initially and how they think about it later.

I just like to give the other points of views and show good things or where people are overestimating issues to put up another side and a kind of motivational point of view.

Complaining about things is good. But I don’t like complaints that have tones that can affect people and make them stop playing and I’m free to post when I see them: forums are public.

It doesn’t hurt to try to be assertive and write well instead of “not being a troll but acting like one” or being too negative. If that’s too hard for people, I guess people will keep having to deal with me (and some others) posting the other sides of the coins from time to time.

Balance is a good thing.

If there’s no negativity at all, something’s off.

If there’s no one posting the good sides or stuff and only people trolling, overestimating issues etc, well, things won’t go well in the medium-long term.

A company’s image isn’t someone’s else playground. It’s not too hard to be aware about what you’re saying around and how it affects other people.

A little empathy thing here, if I was part of the dev team (and had more knowledge to be one there) I know I wouldn’t be able to do as much as players expects because a lot of reasons. But I’m sure I wouldn’t like the way some people forces negativity on every single thing.

How to make a thread get over 50+ comments

Step 1: Have @Pokart or anyone make a harmless joke
Step 2: Have @nojustnotos and @LunarRabbit get offended and take it out of context
Step 3: Reply


Thanks for assuming you’re a troll, that makes things easier. :v

tfw you had a hard time determining EM’s profile pic as either vash the stampede, millions knives, or toji suzuhara

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Best boy Toji Suzuhara :wink:

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I posted that yesterday why are you still mad

Your blood pressure is going to go up if you keep raging on your keyboard.

Listen up bud, I’m gonna say this once because understanding emotions is important for the real world and it’s clear that you don’t. For you to say something that would actually make me angry or raise my blood pressure or get me offended & defensive, I would have to have a reason to care about the things that you say.

And I don’t. You’re just another loser getting his jollies off trolling these message boards, so there is no reason for me to care at all about what you think of me or how you respond to me. There is literally nothing you could type that would bring my emotional feelings toward you above mildly annoyed. I trash your arguments because well, 1) they are completely wrong and it’s really easy, and 2) it amuses me.

By all means, call me mad and angry and defensive and talk about my blood pressure like all the other forum trolls in this thread have. All it does is prove my point about you even further.

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