Tree of Savior Forum

Final Verdict: IMC most of your design decisions are so bad that you can only laugh

General Discussion
#1

I know this should probably go into the feedback, but I don’t really care anymore. I am gonna show you what the idiocy of your system does to the players without even bothering RMT sellers:

The Market
-Silver & Item Generation

  1. Bad Boss Cube Design
    I went into the 190 dungeon roughly 50-55 times and rolled on all cubes twice to get Venom. In the end I ran out of money due to 2) and used my generated talt + stuff to buy the recipe from another player.
    (You can put in the crap worldboss system in here aswell)

Continuing the discussion from Cubes from Dungeons: Problematic System:

  1. Market is broken for a week and it halted my biggest silver generation which was to roll in dungeons at -ev but still generating enough to keep going.

Now max prices roll out on more and more items that have nothing to do with the average saleprices at least on femidian and from what I can tell people start to trade 1:1. To give you a glimpse on femidian market situation:

Not on the market at all:
Mithril ore, ruby, zircon, aias, maga 2h recipe, maga 1h recipe, karacha recipe etc etc.
By now the only reason I go to the market is to check if someone sold something at those actual average prices that are automatically set to get something literally for free.

Continuing the discussion from @IMC Femidian Market is still broken beyond usability:

Continuing the discussion from Market Price Limit malfunctioning right now::

  1. Since silver cannot be traded and people usually don’t hang around with 200+ talt you have problems concluding business. The most usual trade would be trying to go for high volume items like arde daggers/karacha daggers since a) they aren’t effect by 2) for some reason yet. Probably the code isn’t as sphagetti when it comes to actual items.

My last talt trade ended in having to transfer 2830 weight in talt.

  1. Second big income source was spellshoppingas pardoner, but with the server transfer and gigazillion of pardoners more that is of course significantly less now. That is okay you will revamp pardoners anyway since simony is garbage.

  2. We have established that droprate in limited dungeons is ludicrous and the next kicker is that all gear 240+ isn’t tradeable. That means if you happen to find a staff and don’t have a mage you might aswell vendor that rare recipe or play a mage that could use it. Nothing is tradeable anymore.
    Bottomline: You play selfound without ever finding anything from that point forward. Enjoy lategame

  3. For some reason you invented a token system for Lolopanther and made that aquireable which is a good system in itself which by all means should be what you trade all the talts you generate before trade in for. Want a viper recipe ? 150 talt. Want XYZ? 200 talt.

  4. Dungeons can be rushed which is super good so I can make the call if I want xp or not right now. However at the same time I am only ever rewarded experience for fully clearing it. No random drops of any kind make it so boring to run a dungeon 30 times that personally I get headaches from boredom.

So now I have 3 chars and want to buy the last materials for the venom however I cannot. That particular char doesn’t have enough money left nor are all things availible on the market (hint mithril ore = 0).

My twinks have of course enough money, but they can’t transfer their silver nor can they buy the materials and put it into team storage.

I could of course transfer items that sell now due to recent changes, but I would have to wait 48 hours for a difference in wallet, by then the market price will be much higher because as more venom recipes drop so increases the demand for geppetto leaves.

Well hey I could ask my friends to help out - oh wait they cannot because they are restricted aswell so there is only one option. Not finishing up my venom although I have the recipe and the money to buy all that would be needed across my chars.

I give up trying to give any constructive feedback to you guys instead I ask you to get on the level of players and do what they have to do each day:

Print your tradesystem code out and eat it everyday until you are so sick of it as many of us are.

It completely eludes me what fking difference it makes while fighting botters if I transfer silver to my twinks or materials on twink B and give it to twink A. It eludes me because it isn’t based on logic it is based on sh it and there is nothing to understand about that.

The problems for the botters?

Continuing the discussion from Thoughts on IMC restrictions from an ex-Goldseller::

Or we can all see that they are happily selling every day.

Verdicts:
Trading: The worst trade experience I have ever witnessed.
Looting: I expect to be able to grind in a grinder for my items. Mob density and lockouts do not allow me to do so. Functional but anti-fun

Leveling and Experimentation:

Both topics go hand in hand. One of the selling points of this game is of course the huge diversity one can achieve. I will not complain about balance here. It is futile to ask for balance when:

A) With ingame means alone you would have no way of knowing what options your character will actually have down the road.

Example: If I see the game on steam and I think it looks nice and maybe a cleric would be cool, then at no point before reaching rank 7 would I know that e.g. plague doctor or kabalists have anything to do with me.

B) Tooltips are inaccurate, mechanics obfuscated and vital information is missing. Again without tosbase to see if a skill hits 1 time or 10 times which is one of the big things in this damage formula you would not know anything about how well the skill might perform.

C) The answer to every rank mistake is re-roll or finish on money-maker classes.

C) The answer to every rank mistake is re-roll or finish on money-maker classes

I should repeat that very thing ten times because it eludes me how I can offer a product without explaining 10% of it and 5% of what I actually explain is wrong.

D) Re-Rolling in this game is expected which is fine if the leveling experience would differ for every character. By now maybe the first guys notice that it pretty much starts the same. Cafrisun, Pardoner buffs oneshot till lvl 100, while going the exact same way since any other way is not even comparable in effectiveness anymore.

E) You are helped by teamlevel to level up your little chars quicker, which is allright - however although your char is way above average in terms of gear and knowledge (it is a twink after all) you cannot use that to your advantage. You can’t be powerful and go way above where you should be to maybe farm something you need, because you won’t get quests you will be penalized far harder than anything the teamlevel can make up for. If teamlevel is capped at 50% more xp that would mean you get normal xp for killing mobs 15 levels above or below you. A proper system would allow me to go where I believe is the best for me. A diev would take a completely different route than a swordsman or an archer and you would have to do nothing but remove the restriction at least on the upper limit.

F) Endgame is not finished. Suddenly the quest stops and leveling becomes a game of finding the spot with highest density of melee only mobs and farm them until you cannot anymore meanwhile you will be awarded no rare drops, because magically that stuff stops happening at around 180. Remember these moments where you maybe found rare recipe XYZ or this or that.

There is nothing to find anymore. White weapon recipes are found that are better than what you will likely have from the latest dungeons.

G) There is literally no real difference between high level and low level gameplay in terms of actual combat. Mobs do not become harder in any way they just become meatier. There are even plenty of lvl 250+ mobs that I could actually kill without problems in the hundreds because for some reason they have 3k hp and give 25 class xp on lvl ~210. You need millions of class xp - they give 25. Not sure what synapse malfunction created this phenomenon.

H) Grinding for levels only ever works if you are alone (sub 190 zones) or do not have to compete with other parties. Otherwise it is pummeled in effectiveness which lead to strange feelings towards randoms showing up on your screen.

Verdict:

Experimentation is heavily discouraged as planning via ingame means is actually impossible. I feel sorry for all those players that picked the game up seeing it on steam without ever visiting the forum - which is what most people do. Keep in mind 20% of the players actually go to the forums. That means there are 80% out there that have no clue and aren’t helped in any way and I am sorry for them.

Leveling process by itself: You failed to make it an engaging experience that would be enjoyable to repeat. There is no difficulty involved, no benefit for being good or strong. You are restricted into a narrow path you planned out for us. It is just boring and generic as any other MMO. Nothing unique about playing your second character.

IMC I hope you stop reacting and prepare the shitstorm that will unleash in roughly 7-10 days when more people will be forced to re-roll, when more people are genuinely angry about looting nothing in dungeons across several chars day after day.

At the very least you are trying to keep up

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#2

I can’t believe i read it all, and i agree with almost everything u said. i just think that reroll is a part of the game, and planning too, but skills should be better explained. i have over 450+ hours and i consider myself someone that knows A LOT about all the classes and builds, and sometimes i still find out other “hidden” mechanics i had no idea about.

and now with kTOS/iTOS diferences in balance we never know whats comming and whats not. thats why i rerolled my first char, cus if some changes come to iTOS id need to reroll anyway

EDIT: dungeons having no drop (only cubes) and the world bosses cubes distribution is something that i really dislike - everybody higher level than the boss that atack once should get a cube…(like WoW)…

#3

A pretty real opinion, OP.

You talk about what is essentially the largest problems thus far, and I actually do agree there as it isn’t heavy shitposting and well versed. Although, in the case of endgame, it’s fairly rare for an MMO to have actual endgame content on release that isn’t just grind X into oblivion because profit. Though to KToS, I’m unsure if they’ve actually instated any real replayable endgame content, which I hope one will at least be a boss rush/gauntlet mode of all the Demon Lords you’ve had to fight + others.

The skill description boxes are still pretty jokes plus with the amount of customization you’d expect them to be much better than just barebones, and the restrictions that were supposed to prevent or heavily halt RMT ended up really not doing much at all aside give players headaches. However, they’re listening, and they are slowly changing things most likely after thinking it over. Trading is back, which actually makes dungeon runs and actual party play much less painful.

#4

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#5

°Likes before reading°
With @Pappus, I know that I will not be disappointed.

#6

Oh this time you might be. This was just to vent frustration that unfortunately builds faster than the fun takes it out again.

It is like being the ball in a flipper hitting one restriction wherever you go.

#7

Very well written, and I agree with pretty much all of what you said.

This game is frequently called a grinding mmo, but I’m not sure the mechanics can really support that. Map choices and density are too low, and spawn times too long, for that to really work. FTP hasn’t even hit yet and some of the few good grinding locations are already over capactiy at times.

I’m not even sure anything can really be done to alleviate these problems. They had to shift channels from lower level zones to higher level once already, so it doesn’t seem like they can just add more space.

#8

Ball in a pinball machine without an exit at the bottom.

#9

I pretty much agree with all of it. I posted it in another thread but i’ll say it again here. I think many of the core problems with progression class wise is that there are overwhelmingly bad options which stem from certain things just not working with others. The entire swordsman class feels like a bundle of weapon limitations that players are walking on egg shells for to make sure they don’t pick things that don’t mesh. Certain skills having limitations on them just don’t make sense at all sometimes and it leads players into literal traps which is often a cause for rerolling.

In an ideal tos there wouldn’t be a “bad” option when going to advance. The player would be prompted with whatever circles that are available, one of which is probably the most efficient but all of the available choices would at least work and it would come down to if a player wanted the best of the best build or if they wanted to play something that was fun to them personally. Sadly the game isn’t working like that currently and the game likes to have a list of things that does and does not work with specific skills that you would never know about unless you dug through the cesspool of negativity filled threads on the forums to find the threads that do try to warn/inform players about the skills limitations.

#10

That’s basically why I can’t blame you.
What is the point of being constructive when each of your feedbacks go straight to /dev/null ? It may be hijacked by white-knights/trolls on the way but who cares ?

#11

Yeah it’s not like IMC has ever listened to the userbase before.

Oh wait…

#12

There is a difference between listening to constructive feedbacks (basically what some of us are trying/tried to do since CBTs) and giving in the demands of the angry mob.
So far, I have seen more PR BS (and salvaging of their bad decisions) than genuine listening.

#13

+1 you clearly laid out many of my frustrations with this game. Especially with B as a sorcerer I have no idea what summoned boss skills are supposed to do or scale from due to there being no tool tips or even a cool down timer while using ride lol. There are some skills i still dont know if they are broken or giving some buff that isnt named or shown anywhere.

#14

Good feedback.
Personally I would have added game optimization and absolute uselessness of more than half of all skills of all classes.

But the main problem is not to point to every problem but to make devs actually read and consider this.
Maybe moving it to feedback section would be wiser?

#15

I’ve seen a lot of listening personally. They lowered the headstart time and enabled 1:1 trading for non-token users.

The constructive thread about some guy with vision problems which pointed out that the camera shaking was hurting his eyes, that became a toggle option. No angry mob there.

#16

I still wish they remove or at least make some change on trading limit. Brewing potions for guildmate drains my trade limit like waterfall.

#17

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#18

They will adjust the max prices for all items, but by that time it added frustration to tons of people -> It could have been avoided if they listened to the proper feedback of the few, accept my consulting offer, search other consulting offers for creatives within the industry etc etc.

The problematic part is that they re-act when ■■■■ hits the fan. Look the talk about circle reset is weeks old. Now you see a new thread going up everyday. In 5 days you won’t see as many threads going up anymore - why? Not because people are suddenly fine with it, but because they gave up. Either to fight or the game alltogether.

Topic per topic, problem per problem it will stay like this.

How many did quit before they could implement team trading? Still you can’t trade silver you cant trade untradeable mats. That will of course be also alleviated, but by when?

So many things could have been avoided if they just added a contract to some vet gamer that gives guidance as they developed the game. I discussed the arrogance of developers here and there across several topics.

Designing bad code that has to be fixed is more expensive than code that is closer to final product, because it was done with foresight in the first place.

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#19

I think it shows that they do listen. Could they do a better job? Sure. But to say they don’t listen at all is just ignorance.

#20

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