TOS is online chatting game with dressing as core feature and resource management how to dress your avatar~
sounds like TOS is the successor to The Sims™
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I have no idea why someone would want to skateboard, or do modern art, or go hiking. These things seem like work to me. Yet some people love doing these things. They find them fun. Why is beyond me. But hey, good for them.
Everything the OP says is true. It’s true that a lot of the PvP aspects are bare, it’s true that performance isn’t fantastic, it’s true that end game is grindy, it’s true that the entire game is buggy. Just like it’s true that you can hurt yourself falling off a skateboard, that modern art is pricey and either hit or miss, or that hiking can be strenuous. These things are just expected.
So when people defend ToS against someone who complains that it’s too grindy or too much like a chore, it’s a lot like someone defending hiking against a complaint of it being strenuous on your knees. Christ dude, try this other MMO or this other trail, it might be better for you.
When the reddit folks defend the game against these kinds of criticisms, you’re not often seeing “no guy, you are wrong”. The OP isn’t wrong at all. The reddit folks see these problems too. It’s not blindness that allows us to keep playing despite these issues. It’s acceptance, just like how the hiker accepts how strenuous hiking is.
All that’s left is the question why did it take the OP four thousand hours to realize this? Most of the listed issues are staples of the genre. Majority of the reddit users bashing this thread have this concept as the center of their argument. Link.
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Addiction perhaps? It is hard to deal with addiction.
However I do not understand why is the 4K hours such an issue it, if anything it adds more weight to those words, more experience, the man knows what he’s talking about.
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It’s not even because there’s a new game you want to play or another thing in life you want to focus on - it’s just because the game got tiring even if there’s nothing else you’d rather do. The game is that bad.
We play games to have fun (mostly), why can’t that be the case with TOS? 
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His words are spot on. Nobody’s really questioning that.
But all this could have been said at the thousandth hour. The guy spent another three thousand hours doing the things expected of a kMMO.
Many of us who don’t hate the game already understand what to expect from a kMMO, and don’t feel a need to make an exit thread about it. Some of us still play. Some of us take a break and come back. But to cite “grindy” as a criticism for a kMMO is like going to a hiking form and criticizing it for being hard on your knees.
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I’m more intrigued in why people have such an issue with what he has done.
Whatevs to the realizing whatevs before the whatevs time. It doesn’t matter, you acknowledge what he’s saying. why attack the hour thingy? If someone has to walk a longer trek to realize something it doesn’t invalidate neither his words nor his choices.
And let IMC drown in these endless threads that voice pretty much the same. they should of realize what their market wants by now, but they stay silent. and when they do communicate it leaves a bitter taste anyway. that shouldn’t discourage them from talking though. it is their responsability, they made this.
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Why criticize anything at all? OP had something to say about his experience, others had something to say about what OP said. Both are valid. It’s that simple.
Regardless, the point isn’t really about the number of hours spent. It’s about expectation. Korean MMOs are known for their grindiness. That’s just how they are, and that’s why a lot of people who play them enjoy them. So to hear someone complain about grinding in a kMMO is like hearing someone complain about the precision needed in a twitch action shooter. It’s just bizarre. Like, duh. That’s the point.
Eh the grindyness in this game is unhealty and utterly pointless. We have no proper endgame yet.
To be honest, if expecting the game to change is a bad thing, I’m a sinner too. This feedback is meant for the creators of the game, one more drop of water in the ocean.
There’s this Gandhi quote: “You may never know what results come of your actions, but if you do nothing, there will be no results.”
So really this feedback he’s left is meant for IMC to do something, IMC may never read this. but here’s the community discussing the game due to his post. Defending the grindy nature, attacking it. I’d rather attack it though, there’s no benefits from this grind anyway, atleast healthy ones.
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I get what you mean but I think in case of ToS when critizising the grindy aspects of it, it’s not always about the grind itself but the way these grindy features work.
I think @Nekorin has recently made excellent in-depth topics on this where she/he explain how grindy features work in ToS and how the fun of these could be improved.
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You’re calling yourself a sinner. For the third time, nobody’s really wrong here.
Some people do want certain aspects of the game to change in a specific way. Others won’t want these specific changes. It’s up to IMC to decide if they want to change these certain aspects and make the quitting players happy, or to keep these certain aspects the way they are and make their current players happy.
Either way, this doesn’t make the reddit users blind white knights for criticizing this thread.
It seems the summary of the counter-arguments the WKs have is that these issues (grind, RMT, etc.) are expected of Korean MMORPGs and that if you don’t like them, don’t play them.
So, did RO spoiled most of us, making us think that maybe another korean MMO may please the majority international audience? Should we just completely give up on Korean MMOs and shouldn’t play them in the first place if we don’t like spending 4k+ hours before realizing they’re bad?
To the people who are so against negative reviews and quit threads and would go to the extent of defending the game saying how the OP is whining about the game and is wasting everyone’s time - aren’t you doing the same?
Take this guy’s reasoning for example:
- Yes the endgame is a forever grind. But you don’t have to be hardcore. So many people are just chilling at town/ discord chitchatting.
- Pvp is unbalance. Meta and rmt wins. Thats all. You can either join them, or just avoid pvp.
- Complains of rmt existence. Almost every games have some form of rmt. Unless the game has a better conversion of Cash->Tp->silvers, rmt will exist. 99tp for a 3mil token? Lol. What a joke. Any normal players with 2-3 alts can get 3mil a day. RMT players can get more silvers with rmt by paying the same amount than buying tp and sell enchant scrolls/ tokens.
- Bugs and lack of optimization. It has been around since day1. TOS is not TOS without bugs. Not sure why you didn’t quit earlier if you didn’t like those bugs.
Basically…
At least the bad reviews and quit threads mostly would point out the persisting issues of the game and rooms for improvement.
These WKs are like restaurant employees who would write good “honest” reviews on their own restaurant’s Facebook page just to fool more customers even if their kitchen is teeming with roaches, just so they can keep their jobs. Then, if someone leaves a bad review, they would rather have the person silenced if possible or tell him to eat somewhere else if he doesn’t like it there.
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Oh there’s a definite guilty company among us, the father of our troubles, the deaf ear and shut mouth. IMC. we’re waiting for it to come out of its cocoon and appease us, this chapter is not fully closed for many of us, we’re watching until then.
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Gotta agree with you this type of behaviour is extremely unproductive. Even in the case where ToS was a succesful game where most of the issues didn’t exist the goal should still always be to improve instead of just accepting the flaws.
Negative feedback when constructive should always be welcomed, like here. Then again negative behavior/feedback can be just as unproductive (when it’s lacking any useful insight) as this whiteknight blind acceptance.
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op is right but who says. you have do dailies and ET run everyday. just logon do 1 salus and quit, playing a game and doing same thing everyday will burn you out.
i make my coffee and i work on the computer and turn on tree of savior. this has preventing me from getting bore. read a E-book , watch anime while doing saalus.
i want to reach 10,000hour huehuehue mr kim want us
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I don’t like racing games. I’ll play Mario Kart for a little while, realize I’m no longer having fun, and stop. This doesn’t take more than a few hours. So, yes. If you don’t like a genre of game, don’t play them. It’s that simple.
In this specific case, the OP has spent four thousand hours of their time on ToS. That’s a pretty impressive for a free game to grab a player for that long. Ultimately they left disappointed. Which sucks, and is a shortcoming of the game. But I doubt they were feeling that way the whole time. And that’s worth something. That’s among the things that the people who play a kMMO play for.
How do you feel about people reviewing a high graphic AAA title saying “my toaster can’t run it, 0/10 requesting refund”. Or jumping in an early access steam game and leaving the review “crappy game, no polish”. These are just as ‘honest’ as your restaurant employee reviews. I’m pretty sure the only people who don’t want to see these reviews squelched are the iToS forum bovine that turn this place into a cesspool. That’s probably why a lot of the folks on reddit are more positive by comparison. I very rarely see outright lying coming from people who defend ToS and I’ve yet to see them not immediately called out. Meanwhile, you see all kinds of factually wrong statements from the negative reviews. I don’t see anything wrong with squelching dishonesty.
Also I’m willing to bet that your example white knight would not rate the game very highly without also mentioning what kind of flaws to expect. It’s not blind acceptance. Nobody here is pretending things are perfect. But we understand what we’re getting into, and we’re not going to complain about a staple aspects of the genre. Challenging comments that do otherwise is hardly unproductive.
If TOS is really a bad game, I wonder why it is successful in Japan? Japanese must be whiteknights because anyone enjoying the game is a whiteknight. They too need to grind ordoing ToS chores everyday.
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Not psycho again. I literally see this guy antagonize every I quit threads. Well at least this is better than the other 2 hypocrites (which I hope wont stumble on this thread).
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My post was all about constructive critizism and how important it is for improvement. Do these examples you said sound very constructive to you? I think not.
Believe me when I say I’m most of the time on the positive side, I believe some of the hueknights here even think I’m a white knight.
However I see wrong with both parties.
There is definitely a problem with calling out negative feedback when it’s constructive and could do well for improving the game and providing good insight for IMC to understand player frustration.
While I also agree that the type of example you gave have no merit at all. Did you even read my post or just the 3 words you quoted?
This is a terrible defense, even these things can be improved so providing feedback on them shouldn’t be an issue.
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Oh, just one thing I want to add to this. It isn’t that people suddenly realizes that ToS is boring to some extend (few fun things here and there but mainly boring). Not sure I am right but what I truly see is actually getting tired of something you already know. It’s not that you realize the game could be waaay better, you simply realize is that you can’t stand it anymore or got tired and don’t have fun compared to before.
Why people don’t feel this before? They do but you still want to catch up and have things until you get to a big question/dilema:
I don’t know how to put this correctly but either: You do dailies or you do dailies - or you break the endless grind cicle and jump out of it?
I didn’t quote your post because I for the most part agree with it. I quoted one line and addressed it specifically, because that’s all I felt I needed to respond to. About everything except for the part where I addressed your exact verbiage was for the other guy I quoted. I don’t know where you got the mentality that it suddenly became all about you, but the world doesn’t really operate like that.
This is a recursive argument that defeats itself, as pointed out by another poster. If I give criticism on negative feedback, aren’t I just providing good insight to the poster of the feedback?
For the fourth or fifth time, it’s not an issue. People have something to say about what the guy said. That’s all it is. The only issue is the one in your head. I’m merely providing perspective from those who don’t like what the OP has to say. that doesn’t suddenly make me someone who is against any kind of improvement.