Tree of Savior Forum

EXP Rates explained

General Discussion
#83

Doing that whilst grinding is probably the least best place to do it in as there’s really not much to commentate on.

I’ve made some of my best MMO friendships from just being in a party with them and sitting in a field while chatting and grinding. But that’s besides the point.
A low rate and slow EXP progression is something that challenges you to play smarter, not more.
Suddenly you put a lot of time into finding a way on how to optimize things or just exploring places, in the search of doing things more efficiently. During this search you are bound to make mistakes or run into incredible things that you would have never seen if you just had followed some intended path. You constantly question the permanent decisions you’ve made and try to think ahead on what to do after you’ve reached your next personal checkpoint (such as learning a new skill or being able to equip that weapon you’ve had in your inventory for a while now)

High exp rates coupled with NPCs that just hand you quests for leveling discourage you from doing these things.
"Why would I go anywhere else? I can level easily here. Why would I think about doing my build wrong? If I mess up I can just make a new character. “Why would I look forward to equipping some piece of trash weapon I have? I’m gonna replace it in 10 levels again anyways”
There are just things that are very precious to me and many other people that you simply can’t have in a MMO where you level at a rapid rate.

What may feel like monotony to you is quite the opposite for many others. For us getting leveled up many times in a short time is monotony, because we are never challenged to improve on the things we do. For us it feels boring to just follow a determined path like a train on the rail along with anyone else. And since anyone can just finish any quest alone there is no need for communicating with others either

#84

And you seem to misunderstand the concept behind public beta-testing.
What is commonly referred to as “testing” is for the most part (think upwards of 95%) done in-house. There are internal developer QA teams, there are focus group tests - simply put, stages where you actively seek out bugs, fill in bug reports and such. There’s even a round of testing on publisher’s side in some cases.

After a game has successfully passed these iterations and is deemed “seaworthy”, comes the public test. I sure hope you are not imagining that players - who, let’s admit, are more interesting in actually playing than submitting bug reports - are expected to contribute substantially to finding code bugs, glitches and whatnot.

If the in-house phase was not rushed horribly, the amount of bugs found during public testing is rather small in comparison, although there is always some value in bugs that arise in very specific conditions - like on hardware initial testing team might not have, or 3rd party software that interferes with a game, or some specific driver versions that cause problems and such. So it’s not completely useless from that perspective.

But first and foremost, public betas are to get gameplay feedback and see how the game gets accepted by the audience. You don’t run game servers for 8000-odd people in hopes that someone will find the exact steps to reproduce that pesky random bug that had been eluding the programmers for some time. You do it to see if what you’re trying to release (read: sell) is to the liking of your target audience - unless, of course, you’re an overconfident fella on a collision course with inevitable rude awakening.

P.S.: Remember how FFXIV started out? Overconfident developers, rushed release (because hey, it’s Final Fantasy, them fanboys are gonna buy it anyway!) and one of the most spectacular failures in the history of MMOs, with who knows how much money spent into hastily remaking the game into “A Realm Reborn” from scratch.

P.P.S.: Exp rates may be fine from the devs point of view and apparently, some people like it that way too. Unfortunately, the excessive amount of “Too much grind/exp is bad” topics clearly indicates that vast majority of iCBT-1 participants did not find the idea of having to grind like no tomorrow at barely 5% mark of assumed level cap very pleasing.

#85

But how in the world is grinding the same old mob over and over challenging? Surely learning boss mechanics and working as a team to take it down on your 50th attempt is much more of an achievement than easily grinding. sure it may have taken you 6 months but was it actually hard? No it was just long and tedious. The only point that made any sort of sense was the point about not caring about useless gear, which is only part relevant as you can still make a difference mid game and definitely late game. Also you can have all the experiences of making friends and enjoying a sit socializing in every activity you do in an mmo be it grinding, dungeoning, exploring, questing or whatever it doesn’t make too much difference. though I would argue that actually changing the environment through various activities would lead to more interesting conversation and less silent moments but that’s just conjecture.

#86

Fair. Suppose we need to get on with translating more of it for another beta to happen sooner. Gotta bug test those later levels too.

#87

But how in the world is grinding the same old mob over and over challenging?

It is challenging because it is just one of the possible options you can do. Like I said, this kind of gameplay encourages you to try out things. If you find out that a spot is too slow you move on to another spot or maybe try your luck with much harder monsters. Suddenly you realize that these monsters that are way over your level give you insane amounts of exp, but you really have to be careful to not get overwhlemed and die. But you bite through it and keep trying, and suddenly you find a way to kill these monsters in a better way. And there is barely anything in a MMO than suddenly figuring out that you were using something in a really unefficient way all along. Another thing that’s great about slow leveling is that the skills and class advancements you earn are a motivation to make you keep going.
“Only a few more levels, then I can use this amazing new spell! I wonder how strong it’s gonna be and if it’s going to speed up my progress. Oh man, maybe I can finally even move to that other grinding spot and level there with my friends”
That’s the kind of logic I have when playing a MMO. You could say that for me everytime I reach a checkpoint for a new skill or for moving on to a new map is a little bit like the pleasure you feel when you reach max level.

It’s something a modern MMO can’t offer me. Trust me, I’ve done my fair share of raiding in several MMOs too. Yeah sure, it feels nice when you take down a boss with your guild. But ultimately you don’t care about these people you raid with. You just sit there, wait for instructions of the raidleader, follow everyone around and wait for your loot. It doesn’t feel like much of a personal achievement

#88

Look at the result of this poll:

http://strawpoll.me/5136693/r (thread)

When the game releases on Steam and this still keep up, having fun playing a dead game. Having fun arguing on the review section with “casual” people who will give the game thumbs downs and possibly getting banned too.

Personally I don’t want to melt my brain like how some of you guys do, not before I feel it will be worth it. Will wait to see how the developers handle this, you guys have fun with your opinions.

#89

Try Guild Wars 1.

A better example of an engaging online RPG that doesn’t rely on vertical leveling/grinding for slow-burn content or progression. But instead the content was actually playing the game and having to use your brain instead of grinding mindlessly to bypass challenges with inflated stats.

Granted, it was a very instanced orpg, but was because it started as a budget game for budget gamers. Sold millions of copies anyway and was one of the more popular online RPGs of its time. Not a casual game either.

Leveling/exp rate is a necessary evil in MMORPGs anyway. GW1’s level cap is 20, with a really high EXP rate. It might turn off some RO1 players like @fecono here, but what people who don’t play GW1 don’t realize is that lv 20 isn’t the endgame or the final goal (disregarding gear grind, which GW1 doesn’t have much either). The real journey starts there, and is through the game’s content. Levels aren’t content in GW1; content is. And social interactions/experiences in that game thus aren’t form through leveling either, because leveling isn’t necessary.

When a popular, successful, and challenging online multiplayer game can have a long, well-loved lifespan with a strong, tight-knit community with the aforementioned systems, it stands to reason that *Try Guild Wars 1.

A better example of an engaging online RPG that doesn’t rely on vertical leveling/grinding for slow-burn content or progression. But instead the content was actually playing the game and having to use your brain instead of grinding mindlessly to bypass challenges with inflated stats.

Granted, it was a very instanced orpg, but was because it started as a budget game for budget gamers. Sold millions of copies anyway and was one of the more popular online RPGs of its time. Not a casual game either, even with a lv 20 cap and high EXP rate. Because lv 20 isn’t the goal; it’s the start of a journey instead, like in RO1. When the journey and social experiences/memories is formed just as well through actual content and challenges rather than mindless grinding, it stands to reason that maybe having a high level cap/low EXP rate in ToS (or MMORPGs in general) isn’t the Holy Grail that some RO1 players claim it to be.

#90

There really aren’t that many options thought. You have very set grinding zones and if you level anything +5 levels than you, then you get penalized for doing so with reduced exp rate so that point is null. You really don’t get new skills all that often, you get to class rank 3-4 and you should have picked all the skills you want to use in that circle. The only leap in skills is every 15 class ranks to complete a circle which yes is very nice to look forward too. Figuring out boss mechanics and having fun doing less repetitive things is surely more fun than figuring out the best way to efficiently grind mobs for best exp per hour or sp per mobs, I can’t see why you would argue that. And your point about raiding really depends on the people you raid with, the same point could be made about not caring about your grind party members. I had an awesome time raiding and dungeoning with a group of 5 and 10 friends and having dicussing life and/or tactics. Also I wanna stress as I forgot to mention last post, I don’t not lie grinding. I enjoy it to some extent but I can;t see how you don’t this grind is just a bit much.

#91

I think this have been brought up several times. If you don’t mind, try reading this, I am not good at explaining things.

If what you said is indeed the case for the game then many wouldn’t be here “complaining” really. It’s pointless if you keep holding onto your points based on fail facts. Things you want in the game, I and many who are against this early grinding really want too. What you said about wanting to be able to use strategies and skills to fight monsters much higher level than your characters in order to process (and feel rewarded for doing that) is what I said in another thread too. Too bad, the game wasn’t designed that way, you are talking about a game which only exist in your imagination to argue with us. This is very tiresome if you are in our shoes.

#92

What I don’t like about this is that raidbosses are like a puzzle.
Sure, it’s fun if you are the first person to ever try and solve it.
But everyone who comes after you will have the solution to the puzzle already in plain sight since there will be guides for said puzzles from then on. So doing a raid boss most of the time really isn’t about solving a puzzle, it’s about following the solution someone else has found and following the orders of the raidleader. You end up once again doing exactly what you are supposed to do, with no way of alternating. It’s not even like you can alternate your build either since you will need the most cookiecutter build in order to not drag your raid down.

You have very set grinding zones

Is that so? I’ve had the feeling that I was presented with a lot of options for possible spots to grind at, oftentimes multiple ones within the same map. Towards the end of the beta I settled down at Tenent garden and abused the fact that these flower enemies cant move as a archer. Meanwhile on the same map there was another spot I had tried previously which made me struggle much more. That’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about, trying something out, facing failure, thinking about how to do things better. That’s simply something I don’t have to in a modern MMO, nor in a raid.

Too bad, the game wasn’t designed that way, you are talking about a game which only exist in your imagination to argue with us

Thanks for these informations, I didn’t realize that. You are right, I wasn’t quite talking about ToS, I was talking more about MMOs in general and what a MMO has to offer me in order to be fun. Sorry for going a bit offtopic.

I’m trying to give you the perspective of someone who loves the ways of oldschool MMOs, and I’m not the only one who feels this way, like I said for many people ToS indeed feels like a savior in a sea full of boring unappealing MMOs.
Please put our feelings into consideration

#93

You will be amazed. RO1 is still running today for some reason… hmm…

#94

I said:

I see no contradiction.
Gameplay feedback --> certain aspects of the game.
How it is accepted --> certain aspects of the game.

Now EXP rates are there to test a certain aspect of the game, for this iCBT, seems like below lvl 80 content. If they wanted us to test Lvl 600 content, i’m pretty sure there will be a very different EXP model.

What are you seeing that I don’t? :unamused:

I’m pretty sure the intended level cap is around lvl 50-60 for iCBT1, because the content above that is barely exists. Putting that in context, the EXP Rate isn’t all that bad now eh? :wink:

#95

Isn’t grinding the exact same as a puzzle aswell? There will ofcourse be people with tutorials and guides for mots efficient grinding methods makes no difference what issue you’re having be it crafting, grinding, dungeoning, achievements and collecting. There will always be guides and tutorials out there telling you how and the most efficient way to do so. Also it’s not like there is just one way to kill a boss like you make it out to be. Sure you could copy one exactly but it’s not like you’re going to have the same group compilation as everyone else, so not all strategies will work. And people will build there own specific class builds for whatever it is they want the char to do be it pvp, grinding or dungeoning. I can see a pattern here with this back and forth. You give me reasons why grinding is so great, challenging and unique. then I give give counter arguments that are tend to be “It’s the same for everything else aswell, be it dungeoning, questing, etc but more varied”. So I don’t really think you’re gonna have a point that doesn’t fall into the same category but feel free to try.

#96

I’m in agreement with you, but I would have like to test out the paladin skills :’(

#97

I didn’t get to test out sorcerer too :frowning: . But I read someone else who did said the the skills are incomplete / bugged.

#98

Lol sounds about right xD

#99

I love the rates on KR. They’re perfect imo. Especially since I don’t play 24/7 365.

#100

And people will build there own specific class builds for whatever it is they want the char to do be it pvp, grinding or dungeoning

I thought we are talking about raiding right now? In that case you will always have the same cookiecutterbuild as everyone else. And sure, there are boss strategy variations, but again it’s not up to you to decide what you will do during a bossfight, the raidleader tells you exactly what to do and you just follow orders without thinking. If not you must have played some MMO with amazing raiding, please do tell which kind of raids you’ve done in which games.

Isn’t grinding the exact same as a puzzle aswell?

You could see it that way, but in the case of grinding there are many solutions to a puzzle and the solution always changes depending on your own build and playstyle.
Yes, there will be guides for optimal grinding, but these guides mostly exist for MMOs that have been released and experimented with for a long long time. And these grinding guides always precede the following of a certain build too. And even then you can’t be 100% sure that this person hasn’t overlooked something. So yeah, if ToS is released for a long long time and has a couple hundred guides out there for different classes and builds then you could make it yourself easy and follow the solution for one of the many puzzles a slow leveling game has to offer.
But that won’t be the case for a long time. Or you could just decide to not use the solution and try to have fun by turning on your own brain

This option isn’t given to you if you raid in a modern MMO. Again, you have no choice on builds, nor on how you want to approach a boss. If you say something like “hey guys, I’ve had this crazy idea, let’s try to do this boss in a different way this time around for fun” you will get shot down by your fellow raidmembers since they just want to kill the boss in a way that has been proven to be reliable many many times. The goal of the raid isn’t the journey, the goal is the loot.

So you can’t really compare raiding and grinding with each other in this regard. In a raid you as a individual person simply don’t matter enough, so your opinion doesnt matter

But go ahead, amuse me with your arguments about how you maintain your illusion of free will and freedom of decision in a modern MMO. They sure do a good job of making you feel like you are something special, simply by throwing some epic loot and glowing stuff at you, I’ve got to give them that.

While playing them I almost feel like anything I do has any lasting impact! It almost feels like I actually have to think about my next steps!..Almost…But not quite

#101

If it’s a well-made boss encounter with tight timings and unforgiving mechanics, simply “following the solution” will not help much. Remember how World of Warcraft had detailed guides on pretty much every boss in existence? And even then, many people were looking at raid-geared folk in awe - because knowing how to beat let’s say, Reliquary of Souls or Lady Vashj was one thing. Polishing your skills to the point where you could actually pull it off was a different matter entirely.

[quote=“CookyKim, post:94, topic:33009”]
I’m pretty sure the intended level cap is around lvl 50-60 for iCBT1, because the content above that is barely exists. [/quote]

Except they claimed that iCBT1 will be similar to kCBT3 in terms of content. Does that mean they failed to deliver on that and tried to cover it up by making it unreachable given the time and Exp rates? Way to make the first impression…

#102

You must have been playing with some really horrible people, I’m sorry but the people I play with were, are still, fun and very open to new things. And again your argument about class builds is the same fro everything stillm there is and will be reliable ways to grinding in various location with various builds the same way there is ways do raiding various ways with various builds. Same with pvp aswell, you can’t argue that, it’s fact. My arguments are not illusions nor are they a false sense of free will and freedom. The only one deluding himself here is you thinking that grinding 24/7 is fun, hard and an actual achievement other than a title saying look i have free time! And you can go ahead and think your self special by grinding for hours to increase a stat point and thinking of it as something to be proud of.

Lasting impact my arse, what’s so lasting about pointlessly grinding out in the same are, it’s a complete joke. You certainly find it fun in making the devlopers jobs easy. Hey look this person doesn’t care about our carefully planned and sculptured dungeon and story quest. Let’s just make room filled with the same mob and let him go at it with a false sense of achievment, he seems to like that. Huh duh huh duh duh.