Example of a poorly implemented gold sink system

[crevox]

But randomly failing because you’re unlucky and having to go out and get another good roll to fail? Please, actually just please. I know this argument is moot because nothing will ever change but holy crap please tell me you’re not so desensitized to chance that you could blow a a max roll anything and not feel anything. Please tell me you’re a human being who has the sense of loss aversion and thus do not like failing randomly through no fault of your own just because you exist.

Sorry, I’m pretty immune to whining and complaining when I fail, even if it’s due to RNG. I’ll do everything I can to maximize my chances of success, and even if I’m unlucky, there will be a time when I am lucky instead. So it goes.

Operative word IS eventually. Rather than having a clear quest chain with reasonable steps leading to your item. Its “welp, that failed better yahtzee my way to another one.” Yeah Q U A L I T Y system.

That “clear quest chain” with reasonable steps would be not so reasonable. People complain about the costs now, but I’m telling you, if they removed the RNG and made it 100% success chance, it would be very expensive and players would be complaining about that instead.

[Csiko]

The fake progress by luck also isn’t appealing for many people, which is the point of many complaints.

There’s no such thing as luck, only averages. Do it more, you get more of what you want on average. That’s the way it is, sorry.

Then your “hard earned silver” - that came from a cube reroll that took 3 weeks to drop a single good item compared to someone who got 8+ good rolls in the same amount of runs - gets wasted because you got unlucky again when trying to use that silver. This is NOT fine.

Those people who get 8 successes in a row also then get several fails in a row. This is what an average is. Over time it balances itself out. This would be the same if loot just dropped from the cubes straight and they were BoP like it does in WoW, but you don’t get what you want most of the time.

I actually think the real problem with the looting system in Tree has nothing to do with RNG at all, it’s that no one bothers helping each other do anything and the looting system in the game encourages that by having cubes at all. It’s not even so much the random element of ichor that’s the problem, it’s the sheer volume of the materials.

Please tell me you’re a human being who has the sense of loss aversion and thus do not like failing randomly through no fault of your own just because you exist.

I’ve lost so many pieces of gear to ichor it’s not even funny. It sucked. I dealt with it and did it anyway, because it wasn’t actually that hard to do.

[Seiran]

if they removed the RNG and made it 100% success chance, it would be very expensive and players would be complaining about that instead.

That’s actually just an opinion.

We had Lolopanther and Solmiki that lasted for the next rank, just like Velcoffer will, for actually really long time investment and no floor skips, taking many hours a day. It wasn’t a RNG madness and was viable.

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Those people who get 8 successes in a row also then get several fails in a row. This is what an average is. Over time it balances itself out.

And I totally agree with you. Like I said before, it’s simple. Except when we’re talking about 3-4 digits in millions. Being an average doesn’t mean it isn’t frustrating but also doesn’t mean you’ll get decently enough silver - it’s most of time an all or nothing bet.

Take a Demon Lord in Klaipeda that random parties will take 2-3 hours or more to kill, then they get some stones. It’s a huge time investment wasted.

Why do you think there’s so few people in Demon Lords? Because they feel the reward isn’t worth it even if they get a card that’s worth a silver value that will cover more than they would win farming in another place.

The simple fact that ToS right now feels like trying to win the lotto makes people feel frustrated and eventually stop investing important time of holidays and such into something that gives nothing as reward. On top of that most of the profiting content isn’t fun, which was lost in the process of making monsters weak. It’s just about mindless playing.

I actually think the real problem with the looting system in Tree has nothing to do with RNG at all, it’s that no one bothers helping each other do anything

This is another thing I agree. And ToS pushes a competitive behavior which in the same time gives you advantages or disadvantages based on your luck. It will be frustrating even if nothing changes in the end.

I’ve lost so many pieces of gear to ichor it’s not even funny. It sucked. I dealt with it and did it anyway, because it wasn’t actually that hard to do.

And RNG isn’t hard. That’s the whole point, there’s no reason to have something that poses no challenge and just fail on your face just for the sake of failing.

[Loztchild]

A lot of us don’t mind ONE LAYER OF RNG but RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG…cmon bruh

To get E you need go through ABCD and you can’t fail once bc if you do you need to restart and you need to pay 60 mil silver from one letter to the other

From A to B there is 0.5 % Then from B to C 0.25 and from C to D 0.1% and from D to E 0.001%

And knowing IMC stated not me!!! That they will continue using this RNG system in the future for the next best weapons and gear.By the time you working on this vel ■■■■ another top tier will appear with the same system.

YOU ALL THINK THAT GETTING MAD AT THIS END HERE JUST WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT BEST THING COME OUT WITH THIS RNG…YOU ALL WILL QUIT TOS WATCH

[Seiran]

From A to B there is 0.5 % Then from B to C 0.25 and from C to D 0.1% and from D to E 0.001%

And then after E you need to buy Leticia’s Cube for Diamond Anvils otherwise your weapon is weak and all the previous progress became useless in the end. And you can’t use silver because you failed 27 times to succeed and that took out every silver you could even ask friends to help you with the reroll cost + materials + ichor + etc.

[Csiko]

We had Lolopanther and Solmiki that lasted for the next rank, just like Velcoffer will, for actually really long time investment and no floor skips, taking many hours a day. It wasn’t a RNG madness and was viable.

So you’re okay with afking in ET for 2 hours every single day but not okay with doing CMs and the 330 raid to make money every few days? Just because one is RNG and feels bad when you fail?

Do you not find the successes more rewarding when failure is a possibility?

Whiteknights always win no matter what bc they always right and they always travel in groups and never alone …look and you will see.They invested too much real money in this game for it to die so they defend the RNG system even though deep inside they know it’s a horrible idea but hey if you got the money or bots it’s easy lemon squeeze. Heck if I had 59 million dollars IRL this RNG can’t harm me.

Saying “this system isn’t as bad as everyone is making it out to be because we actually did it” isn’t whiteknighting. I don’t think either of us are even fully defending it, we’re saying that the whining is completely unjustified because it is as easy as it is without having to RMT and only by farming silver by doing existing content. Which it is.

Making it easier only benefits someone like me because I’ll have more time to do those other things, like level/gear alts and PVP more. I just don’t think everyone should be running around in gear that they got for getting carried a couple times through an instance. It’s just easier to bitch. And I have no doubt that everyone will get their way and the system will get super easy and everyone will be rolling around in ichor and Velco gear in a month or two.

And then you’ll find something else to bitch about.

[crevox]

Everyone is open to their own opinions of course. But while everyone is complaining here on the forum and accusing me of P2W or something, I’m sitting here farming in game.

I’m not a white knight. I just don’t care about RNG. I’ve played many games and dealt with far more difficult systems than this, like making a mythic weapon in FFXI. This is nothing in comparison.

Gonna go back to having fun playing the game now.

[Seiran]

So you’re okay with afking in ET for 2 hours every single day but not okay with doing CMs and the 330 raid to make money every few days? Just because one is RNG and feels bad when you fail?

Exactly. I’d also rather go back to farming DPK 10-14 hours a day killing strong monsters than a mindless farm where I’d spend 10 hours killing monsters that poses no challenge and go back to town to roll trash stats - completely wasting my day and killing any motivation to ever farm this hard again.

Do you not find the successes more rewarding when failure is a possibility?

Nope. But that’s my opinion, just like some people like buying gacha and some doesn’t.

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I’ve played many games and dealt with far more difficult systems than this

And again, that’s the point. There’s no difficult if it’s RNG-based. People aren’t complaining that it’s hard, we’re complaining that it’s pointless.

[Csiko]

Exactly. I’d also rather go back to farming DPK 10-14 hours a day killing strong monsters

“I don’t like this really bad inefficient system because I don’t get what I want the first try, so I want to go back to an even more inefficient system so I can be guaranteed thing after 10 hours.”

Yeah, no.

[Seiran]

Grindy progress > Random luck.

[_TM27]

Tokens for your runs for Vel = Good.
RNG in almost every nook and cranny eh

[Tehwi]

killing strong monsters

He’s right, the game is piss easy right now and there’s no content that’s really “fun” or “engaging” outside of Velcoffer. If every bit of content released from now on is on that same tier as Velcoffer than the game would be fun for players who like a challenge. Other than that, its just the same mindless aoe throwing into seas of mobs that don’t do anything in particularly special other than have increased stats.

Kim saved the game, now he’s strangling it.

[Csiko]

Small progress > random lucky.

It’s the saaaaaaaame.

It took me less time to make 4 pieces of Velco than it took me to farm one an Emengard Shield with DPK because of sniping.

It cost more silver, but the time investment was literally the same.

[gmt16]

TOS has a huge amount of examples of content that are interesting, but the return on investment is low and nobody ends up doing it; and you end up extending that thought to the game itself and stop playing, because it becomes just a waste of time. Every time I play, I wonder why I still play this game, and I have not been able to answer that for a long time.

[Seiran]

It took me less time to make 4 pieces of Velco than it took me to farm one an Emengard Shield with DPK because of sniping.

That’s my point. Main complaints of DPK wasn’t because it was DPK, it was because external factors nullified your progress.

Which is exactly what happens with the many RNG layers currently. The whole reason people stops putting their time into Demon Lords, opting-out of Velcoffer, not farming etc. is because you’re wasting time just for the sake of it.

Progressing slowly isn’t the same as having a huge progress spike after spending your entire weekend having a chance to get nothing in return.

[Tehwi]

If its the same, then make it so that it doesn’t feel bad when you don’t succeed. Its not the same because you can fail any number of times and feel like trash or just luck out instantly and still feel nothing because you didn’t “”""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""work towards it. Its an ass system and it feels bad both ways. Its like you could steadily work towards it, or eventually get lucky. I 110% prefer the former however i can’t speak for everyone. I’m just a retard on the internet.

[Friend]

well there’s a reason why this game isn’t growing, partly is because the patches hasn’t been generally fun, catching up to anybody is actually almost impossible without RMTing. many players in this game still playing especially exhibit RMT

if you think this type of RNG+masochism gameplay is fun and “people should think it’s fun” then i think you’re living in the wrong era

especially since the notion that “i did it, so everyone should be able to” is completely flawed. you (who spent 6000hr+ on this game) can’t be compared to someone else who spent a few hundred hours.

[Lubu20]

Exactly. I’d also rather go back to farming DPK 10-14 hours a day killing strong monsters than a mindless farm where I’d spend 10 hours killing monsters that poses no challenge and go back to town to roll trash stats - completely wasting my day and killing any motivation to ever farm this hard again.

I kinda miss this, too. Every time I would get an orange 315 mat, I was happy that I’d earn over 1.5m per drop during those days. During that whole summer, that’s how I made my silver. It doesn’t feel the same with HG for me.
I also lost my drive to farm a lot. Currently, there’s no challenging content worth farming silver for, so I just did Saalus and ET with the guild and TBL(Only content that’s worth gearing for to me, unfortunately, but everyone is gone ).

[Lubu20]

Holy batmon, this guy is a legend.

[Suchi]