Example of a poorly implemented gold sink system

[Csiko]

People ate truly upset are those real players that are playing TOS without spending money and trying to figure how to farm silver in the legit way without falling into the PW2 or cheating ways.

And people like Crev (and I) have explained over and over how to obtain the amount of silver legitimately. The system is frustrating for some and I get that, but there’s no reason to accuse anyone who is doing it successfully of RMTing.

I have a full time job, I play for a few hours a day on weekdays and a fairly large amount on weekends. Most of that time lately is spent farming silver and doing Velco. Ichoring consumed a lot of silver, rerolling Velco cubes consumed a lot of silver. Straight up, I’ve done CMs/raid. Lots of raid because I got really “unlucky” with Velco rerolls on some of my characters. I get that people don’t want to listen to the advice given, I get that people are stubborn and want to just figure it out on their own, and when they inevitably fail they do stupid things that will probably get them banned when caught. But if they swallowed their pride for like 5 seconds they’d realize how easy it is to make silver completely legitimately.

[Tehwi]

I think what they’re saying is, because its not fun to them, if someone else has done it obviously they bought it.
TL’s Note: Insert whatever insult is applicable to make that more realistic.

[Tehwi]

Having bad luck and failing doesn’t make it poorly implemented. Just try again.

Yes it does. RNG is not fun for anyone involved and is a lazy way to artificially extend the life of a patch. RNG as a determinant for your character’s strength is poorly implemented. I understand that you’re indoctrinated into that school of thought, but its bad and you should be aware of just HOW bad it is. (very)

[Seiran]

But if they swallowed their pride for like 5 seconds they’d realize how easy it is to make silver completely legitimately.

Easy doesn’t mean efficient in the end though, which is the point of some people.

The fake progress by luck also isn’t appealing for many people, which is the point of many complaints.

In a summary you can make silver by simply playing the game, and that’s true. If a given player is being lazy it’s their fault. You can’t make silver if you don’t play. Nothing wrong here if we’re not talking about 3-4 digits for millions.

But one fact is that this game changed a lot. Effort doesn’t translate into success. I’m one type of player that always preferred longer grind for profit, I don’t like to decide to take a day off from studying and put 8 hours into HG to get 12 trash Primus stats - it’s frustrating.

I’m not sure if I’m the only one with this opinion…
If you farmed for something, you get it, you sell it and feel satisfied on the end of the day.

But all items you got are trash, simply unlucky. Then you can dust it right? For no profit because you’re against bots.

Then on the other hand I can enhance those weapons and get lucky and sell one +16 with bad stats and good potential for around 100m - it’s magic.

It’s true that there are many legit ways of making silver. Some might argue that multi-account is legit since it’s allowed. Same goes for selling items from gacha cubes - legitimately reselling or using this as excuse to hide that they buy cubes.

The silver of this game shouldn’t be in the hands of who fall in the “lucky or rich IRL” category. It’s not healthy and people will stop farming out of frustration.

Then your “hard earned silver” - that came from a cube reroll that took 3 weeks to drop a single good item compared to someone who got 8+ good rolls in the same amount of runs - gets wasted because you got unlucky again when trying to use that silver. This is NOT fine.

[crevox]

Yes it does. RNG is not fun for anyone involved and is a lazy way to artificially extend the life of a patch. RNG as a determinant for your character’s strength is poorly implemented. I understand that you’re indoctrinated into that school of thought, but its bad and you should be aware of just HOW bad it is. (very)

That’s an opinion. RNG doesn’t bother me at all, and I’m not “indoctrinated” into it. If it wasn’t RNG, it would be a very high cost that players would be complaining about instead, and that high cost would be the “lazy way to artificially extend the life of a patch.” This isn’t just a patch either, as IMC has said this equipment will last well into rank 10.

I try until I succeed and I don’t care if I fail. Failure is going to happen. It’s expected. It SHOULD be expected. Eventually, I’ll succeed. Maybe it will be above the average, maybe it will be below the average. Doesn’t matter. I’ll get there. If I’m unlucky, maybe next time I will be lucky. In the end, it will average out one way or the other. Even if it averages out unfavorably, I’ll reach the goal.

[Seiran]

If it wasn’t RNG, it would be a very high cost that players would be complaining about instead, and that high cost would be the “lazy way to artificially extend the life of a patch.”

Except that the game wasn’t this RNG-heavy before and people already complained the “too much RNG” system was bad.

People would rather have their effort paid off than lost because external factors - which is why many people complained about DPK.

It wasn’t because it wasn’t random or took long, main problem was because too many external factors could nullify your entire progress just for the sake of it.

[Tehwi]

Operative word IS eventually. Rather than having a clear quest chain with reasonable steps leading to your item. Its “welp, that failed better yahtzee my way to another one.” Yeah Q U A L I T Y system. Everything costs something and we know time is a resource players consume. But randomly failing because you’re unlucky and having to go out and get another good roll to fail? Please, actually just please. I know this argument is moot because nothing will ever change but holy crap please tell me you’re not so desensitized to chance that you could blow a a max roll anything and not feel anything. Please tell me you’re a human being who has the sense of loss aversion and thus do not like failing randomly through no fault of your own just because you exist.

[crevox]

But randomly failing because you’re unlucky and having to go out and get another good roll to fail? Please, actually just please. I know this argument is moot because nothing will ever change but holy crap please tell me you’re not so desensitized to chance that you could blow a a max roll anything and not feel anything. Please tell me you’re a human being who has the sense of loss aversion and thus do not like failing randomly through no fault of your own just because you exist.

Sorry, I’m pretty immune to whining and complaining when I fail, even if it’s due to RNG. I’ll do everything I can to maximize my chances of success, and even if I’m unlucky, there will be a time when I am lucky instead. So it goes.

Operative word IS eventually. Rather than having a clear quest chain with reasonable steps leading to your item. Its “welp, that failed better yahtzee my way to another one.” Yeah Q U A L I T Y system.

That “clear quest chain” with reasonable steps would be not so reasonable. People complain about the costs now, but I’m telling you, if they removed the RNG and made it 100% success chance, it would be very expensive and players would be complaining about that instead.

[Csiko]

The fake progress by luck also isn’t appealing for many people, which is the point of many complaints.

There’s no such thing as luck, only averages. Do it more, you get more of what you want on average. That’s the way it is, sorry.

Then your “hard earned silver” - that came from a cube reroll that took 3 weeks to drop a single good item compared to someone who got 8+ good rolls in the same amount of runs - gets wasted because you got unlucky again when trying to use that silver. This is NOT fine.

Those people who get 8 successes in a row also then get several fails in a row. This is what an average is. Over time it balances itself out. This would be the same if loot just dropped from the cubes straight and they were BoP like it does in WoW, but you don’t get what you want most of the time.

I actually think the real problem with the looting system in Tree has nothing to do with RNG at all, it’s that no one bothers helping each other do anything and the looting system in the game encourages that by having cubes at all. It’s not even so much the random element of ichor that’s the problem, it’s the sheer volume of the materials.

Please tell me you’re a human being who has the sense of loss aversion and thus do not like failing randomly through no fault of your own just because you exist.

I’ve lost so many pieces of gear to ichor it’s not even funny. It sucked. I dealt with it and did it anyway, because it wasn’t actually that hard to do.

[Seiran]

if they removed the RNG and made it 100% success chance, it would be very expensive and players would be complaining about that instead.

That’s actually just an opinion.

We had Lolopanther and Solmiki that lasted for the next rank, just like Velcoffer will, for actually really long time investment and no floor skips, taking many hours a day. It wasn’t a RNG madness and was viable.

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Those people who get 8 successes in a row also then get several fails in a row. This is what an average is. Over time it balances itself out.

And I totally agree with you. Like I said before, it’s simple. Except when we’re talking about 3-4 digits in millions. Being an average doesn’t mean it isn’t frustrating but also doesn’t mean you’ll get decently enough silver - it’s most of time an all or nothing bet.

Take a Demon Lord in Klaipeda that random parties will take 2-3 hours or more to kill, then they get some stones. It’s a huge time investment wasted.

Why do you think there’s so few people in Demon Lords? Because they feel the reward isn’t worth it even if they get a card that’s worth a silver value that will cover more than they would win farming in another place.

The simple fact that ToS right now feels like trying to win the lotto makes people feel frustrated and eventually stop investing important time of holidays and such into something that gives nothing as reward. On top of that most of the profiting content isn’t fun, which was lost in the process of making monsters weak. It’s just about mindless playing.

I actually think the real problem with the looting system in Tree has nothing to do with RNG at all, it’s that no one bothers helping each other do anything

This is another thing I agree. And ToS pushes a competitive behavior which in the same time gives you advantages or disadvantages based on your luck. It will be frustrating even if nothing changes in the end.

I’ve lost so many pieces of gear to ichor it’s not even funny. It sucked. I dealt with it and did it anyway, because it wasn’t actually that hard to do.

And RNG isn’t hard. That’s the whole point, there’s no reason to have something that poses no challenge and just fail on your face just for the sake of failing.

[Loztchild]

A lot of us don’t mind ONE LAYER OF RNG but RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG…cmon bruh

To get E you need go through ABCD and you can’t fail once bc if you do you need to restart and you need to pay 60 mil silver from one letter to the other

From A to B there is 0.5 % Then from B to C 0.25 and from C to D 0.1% and from D to E 0.001%

And knowing IMC stated not me!!! That they will continue using this RNG system in the future for the next best weapons and gear.By the time you working on this vel ■■■■ another top tier will appear with the same system.

YOU ALL THINK THAT GETTING MAD AT THIS END HERE JUST WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT BEST THING COME OUT WITH THIS RNG…YOU ALL WILL QUIT TOS WATCH

[Seiran]

From A to B there is 0.5 % Then from B to C 0.25 and from C to D 0.1% and from D to E 0.001%

And then after E you need to buy Leticia’s Cube for Diamond Anvils otherwise your weapon is weak and all the previous progress became useless in the end. And you can’t use silver because you failed 27 times to succeed and that took out every silver you could even ask friends to help you with the reroll cost + materials + ichor + etc.

[Csiko]

We had Lolopanther and Solmiki that lasted for the next rank, just like Velcoffer will, for actually really long time investment and no floor skips, taking many hours a day. It wasn’t a RNG madness and was viable.

So you’re okay with afking in ET for 2 hours every single day but not okay with doing CMs and the 330 raid to make money every few days? Just because one is RNG and feels bad when you fail?

Do you not find the successes more rewarding when failure is a possibility?

Whiteknights always win no matter what bc they always right and they always travel in groups and never alone …look and you will see.They invested too much real money in this game for it to die so they defend the RNG system even though deep inside they know it’s a horrible idea but hey if you got the money or bots it’s easy lemon squeeze. Heck if I had 59 million dollars IRL this RNG can’t harm me.

Saying “this system isn’t as bad as everyone is making it out to be because we actually did it” isn’t whiteknighting. I don’t think either of us are even fully defending it, we’re saying that the whining is completely unjustified because it is as easy as it is without having to RMT and only by farming silver by doing existing content. Which it is.

Making it easier only benefits someone like me because I’ll have more time to do those other things, like level/gear alts and PVP more. I just don’t think everyone should be running around in gear that they got for getting carried a couple times through an instance. It’s just easier to bitch. And I have no doubt that everyone will get their way and the system will get super easy and everyone will be rolling around in ichor and Velco gear in a month or two.

And then you’ll find something else to bitch about.

[crevox]

Everyone is open to their own opinions of course. But while everyone is complaining here on the forum and accusing me of P2W or something, I’m sitting here farming in game.

I’m not a white knight. I just don’t care about RNG. I’ve played many games and dealt with far more difficult systems than this, like making a mythic weapon in FFXI. This is nothing in comparison.

Gonna go back to having fun playing the game now.

[Seiran]

So you’re okay with afking in ET for 2 hours every single day but not okay with doing CMs and the 330 raid to make money every few days? Just because one is RNG and feels bad when you fail?

Exactly. I’d also rather go back to farming DPK 10-14 hours a day killing strong monsters than a mindless farm where I’d spend 10 hours killing monsters that poses no challenge and go back to town to roll trash stats - completely wasting my day and killing any motivation to ever farm this hard again.

Do you not find the successes more rewarding when failure is a possibility?

Nope. But that’s my opinion, just like some people like buying gacha and some doesn’t.

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I’ve played many games and dealt with far more difficult systems than this

And again, that’s the point. There’s no difficult if it’s RNG-based. People aren’t complaining that it’s hard, we’re complaining that it’s pointless.

[Csiko]

Exactly. I’d also rather go back to farming DPK 10-14 hours a day killing strong monsters

“I don’t like this really bad inefficient system because I don’t get what I want the first try, so I want to go back to an even more inefficient system so I can be guaranteed thing after 10 hours.”

Yeah, no.

[Seiran]

Grindy progress > Random luck.

[_TM27]

Tokens for your runs for Vel = Good.
RNG in almost every nook and cranny eh

[Tehwi]

killing strong monsters

He’s right, the game is piss easy right now and there’s no content that’s really “fun” or “engaging” outside of Velcoffer. If every bit of content released from now on is on that same tier as Velcoffer than the game would be fun for players who like a challenge. Other than that, its just the same mindless aoe throwing into seas of mobs that don’t do anything in particularly special other than have increased stats.

Kim saved the game, now he’s strangling it.

[Csiko]

Small progress > random lucky.

It’s the saaaaaaaame.

It took me less time to make 4 pieces of Velco than it took me to farm one an Emengard Shield with DPK because of sniping.

It cost more silver, but the time investment was literally the same.