Tree of Savior Forum

[DropPerKill] Part 2: What are the Solutions?

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#1

This is part 2 of a 2 part series, this is the link to part 1.

One of the major gripes of random drop rate systems is that there is a chance where you will never get an item with even a 10% drop rate (it is low but you can be that unlucky). Count based system counters this by guaranteeing you to get an item after X kills; while preserving the overall drop rate. I am confident this the reason why a count based system was developed.

However the implementation of a non-random drop system poses questions on fairness. The Pokubu I killed and you killed isn’t the same Pokubu - but there’s no way to tell from game graphics alone (like a blue / silver / gold mob).

So what should we do? There’s a few options each with pro and cons.

1) Revert to a full random RNG based drop mechanic:

Pro: Fair
Con: Some people will be more unlucky than others (but statistically averages out). Goes against developer’s original design goals.

2) Maintain the current system:

Pro: None
Con: described in part 1

3) Save the DPK count over server maintenance while maintaining the current count based system

Pro: Fixes the problem of 0% effective drop chance problem due to counter reset.
Con: Still exploitable for people who keep track of kills/hr of each channel and knowing when the last item dropped. At least they don’t get a free information point every time the server resets.

4) Make DPK count player specific

Pro: Fair
Con: Might take away the random excitement of dropping a rare item (you know when it’s coming). Also lowers the effective drop rate of the item, because not everyone is going to hit the critical DPK number to drop the item. Finally parties will not be able to speed up your farming rate - as your friends will also need to meet their DPK number (although when it drops, you get 2 or more at roughly the same time).

5) Make DPK count party specific (solo players will follow the system described at point 4)

Pro: Fair (?). Encourages party play. Speeds up DPK count in a party, 2 people will advance 2x and 3 people 3x etc.
Cons: Parties are not static, how will it be implemented? Will every party get a DPK count reset? How about outstanding DPK count when the party breaks? how will it translate to individual DPK count? If party count is simply given (overwrites the individual DPK count), then it essentially multiplies the drop rate.

6) DPK resets with at a random starting point (initial seeding)

Pro: harder to exploit, guarantees drop after a certain maximum DPK count
Con: drop rate becomes variable, and proper mathematics will have to be done to estimate the targeted overall drop rate.

7) RNG with a pity counter (e.g. RNG until you hit 10,000 kill which guarantees a drop)

Pro: Fair system, guarantees drop after maximum DPK count. Friends will be able to help.
Con: drop rate becomes variable, and proper mathematics will have to be done to estimate the targeted overall drop rate.

Personally I favor solution 7. It achieves both fairness and the developer’s design goal, and will be much easier to understand than solution 6, although 6 & 7 are actually similar in nature.

Dropping items is one of the most important mechanic in an MMO. Implemented correctly and you have a game that offers significant fun / reward for players. Implemented incorrectly and no amount of features will keep you a functional player base.

I consider this a Priority No. 1 critical fix. i.e. More important than perfect refine exploit, multi equip exploit, party quest bug. This is because this is a fundamental game engine that is decidedly unfair. It is a system where no active exploit is needed to make it unfair for other players, as it in itself is an unfair system.

I think I have covered most of the possibilities. However please post your comment for which solution you think is better, or if you have your own suggestion for the design team, post them below.

@hkkim this is the first time I tagged you to read my post. As I think it is critically important that you understand the severity of the design choice your team has taken. Please reconsider your drop system in place and implement something that is far less exploitable.

14 Likes
[DropPerKill][Work in Progress] Part 1: RNG or DPK? Experiment to Prove if Drop Chance is RANDOM or NON-RANDOM
[DropPerKill] Drop rate system- DPK- Explained [Updated]2
Drop System Reworked - Fully Implemented
#2

Unfortunately I think their intentions were more nefarious. In all likelihood, the system was developed to combat bots from farming rare items. Call me cynical, but can you blame me?

The current system is absolutely atrocious and only exacerbates toxic behavior.

#3

Yet this system favours bots, who can farm 24/7.

I’d either go for full RNG or 7).

I don’t even feel like farming when I’m on a map with other people and the item I want is a DKP one. Tenent 1F is the perfect example of the system go wrong.

#4

Sadly there will be no solutions, IMC doesn’t even have server logs to go back and punish the 100s of dupers we have on klaipeda, we all know who they who are but IMC cant do a single thing a month after promising they would, to think that they would or HAVE the capability to recode their drop system is an utter fantasy. This company is not capable of correcting minor game bugs in a 2 month window, removing dpk will never happen. (imo its a filthy system that rewards thieves with lazy friends who just sit in channels and monitor kills until the predicted dpk window spawns, than they call their sleezebag guildees out and they split up to dibo all the spawns)

#5

I don’t think they will change the DPK system soon.

I’d vote for
7) RNG with a pity counter (e.g. RNG until you hit 10,000 kill which guarantees a drop)

#6

This dpk system just shows that IMC wants to control certain items being introduced into the game with a fixed certainly. They obviously don’t care about combating bots(since such a system favors them), or the playerbase.

#7

The DPK-system is okay and has only one flaw - the reset by maintenance - but this fla should motivate the player to kill more monsters. Therefore I would prefer the no. 3. A guaranteered drop is â– â– â– â–  and will be abused by bots.

#8

But with this system, casual farming is completely nonproductive - the only way to achieve success is farming something nonstop for a long period of time. It is literally the exact opposite of a system that deters botting, this ENCOURAGES botting, because if you farm for an hour and don’t get the drop, stopping at that point means all of your time was wasted because all of your rolls were essentially a 0% chance at an item.

Also, #7 is sortof more of a PRD system which I think would be the better solution by far. It should also be character-specific, not channel-specific.

Edit: Not the exact solution, rather a PRD system completely replacing the RNG and DPK currently used. As in, the odds of duplicate drops happening in a row are very unlikely, but as you exceed the predicted droprate of the item the odds of it not dropping approach 0.

It’s already a guaranteed drop that is abused by bots.

#9

This dpk system just shows that IMC wants to control certain items being introduced into the game with a fixed certainly. They obviously don’t care about combating bots(since such a system favors them), or the playerbase.

But with this system, casual farming is completely nonproductive - the
only way to achieve success is farming something nonstop for a long
period of time. It is literally the exact opposite of a system that
deters botting, this ENCOURAGES botting, because if you farm for an hour
and don’t get the drop, stopping at that point means all of your time
was wasted because all of your rolls were essentially a 0% chance at an
item.

In the end, statistically speaking the amount of DPK items being brought into the system even out according to their drop rate, so 0.01% for gems,
but point was that the systems in place are purportedly there to combat bots and RMT but in the end only empower them and complicate things for regular players.

#10

Actually, no they don’t. Many mobs will NEVER reach the 10,000 kill count required with our current playerbase to drop a gem inbetween maintenances, not to mention channel crashes, because they aren’t killed enough. If a mob reaches 8,000 - 9,000 kill count in channel 1 between maintenances, it could have been killed hundreds of thousands of times by now, but it’s never dropped a gem, effectively making that gem’s droprate 0%.

For some, it’s not even possible if you farm the mob 24/7 without stopping. Large Panto Spearman for example, will never ever drop his monster gem because he mathematically cannot be killed 10,000 times between weekly maintenances even by a bot camping his spawn.

#11

Actually, no they don’t. Many mobs will NEVER reach the 10,000 kill
count required with our current playerbase to drop a gem inbetween
maintenances, not to mention channel crashes, because they aren’t killed
enough. If a mob reaches 8,000 - 9,000 kill count in channel 1 between
maintenances, it could have been killed hundreds of thousands of times by now, but it’s never dropped a gem, effectively making that gem’s droprate 0%.

Fair point, I won’t contest it.

For some, it’s not even possible if you farm the mob 24/7 without
stopping. Large Panto Spearman for example, will never ever drop his
monster gem because he mathematically cannot be killed 10,000 times
between weekly maintenances even by a bot camping his spawn.

I’m going to give them some benefit of the doubt and assume that not all gems have a DPK counter of 10,000. That could be wishful thinking, I don’t know.

#12

You would need a whole server of Oracles and Chronomancers to spam Resetting + Pass to get its gem.

#13

And Dopp’s DPE(x2) and Thau’s Swell(x2) for double drops=x4 drops?

DPK system would have been good if the game maintained good handling to keep a large amount of it’s starting player base count together with stable spawn count/rates of mobs.

#14

Doppel DPE and Thaum Swell Body doesn’t affect DPK, sadly. Only Oracle’s Resetting causes DPK counter +1 per use.

DPE + Swell Body on the 100k +1 Infrorocktor for multiple Boaters please.

#15

Or, they could improve Golden mob’s loot and put gem/rare items inside, instead of dropping materials and low value items. That way, people with 2x loot skills like myself (Double Earn Pay) would benefit even more and make those skills worth putting some points.

#16

DPE needs a rework. Right now you just throw one point in it and activate it in parties and you can just get double exp/drops for the full duration as long as you don’t hit anything.

#17

Altho I’m not sure.
While I was farming for these


Which is said to be 1% drop chance, there was also 4 other Fencers looking for it at that time we were all channel jumping due to the low pop count(2-3every50sec/ch), and got 4 in less than 20min(less than 10kills) all from different channel each, likely I KSed all 4(3 actually third one doubled due to DPE) drops of those from them.

Since there was 5 of us I could’t keep a proper track of killcount for a dpk check. Next day, I was alone in the map all channels for a good 4 somethin hours, then around 50-80kills/ch, 1 dropped, next dropped in less than 80kills/ch, the third was taken from me by grinding player that came in. 10 out of 13 of the Fossil ambers I got are all dropped twice from me keeping my DPE up when ever I’m close to the kill count requirements.
Sure DPE doesn’t affect DPK count(don’t know bout Swell yet tho), but given you know they gonna be dropping soon and have the skill active upon the DPK kill it still can drop double.
If I may add, map has 6 channels, Poison bangle recipe drops at around 1-130-180kills/ch where I got 2 while was there.

See above, can’t improve chances but it’s can still double your boon if you always have it active when close to the deciding kill. Besides DPE is like a free EXP tome in missions, always have it on when the boss is dying.

If there’s any testing should be tried, it’s a level15 Jolly Roger’s pillage rate since they can pull out both 100%cube drops and Red recepies(got my Venier thru this). Does each hit on the target count on a separate DPK counter outside the channel’s current DPK count.

#18

This has nothing to do with DPE, i know how to use it. All im asking for is to put the freaking gems and rare items on the “golden” mobs (100% chance). Which are already rare mobs.

#19

10 pincers took me prbably 2 hours to farm at krontal coast. its a material required to craft all parts of grynas armor set. need 10 in total. must be the same rate as fossilized lizard amber. theres an area that consistently spawn 7 of them and you can hop channels or just stay there to farm. funny thing is that they drop twin blade recipe more often than pincers.

#20

Has anyone of you considered that this is a part of the Korean MMO Trap?