Tree of Savior

@Developer, please read these thread about iToS people's opinion regarding healing tile at Re:Build


#21

They could come up with another method for preying on clerics in pvp. Without heal the way it is today will decrease the number of healers in the game because it will require 2 classes, from the 3 that can be chosen, directed to the cure to keep a group alive.
This is not because of using potion or not … this is in relation to the survival of the game …


#22

This is a good change. No need for Healers anyway if you can just pot. IMC stated that they never envisioned Clerics as sole Healers but rather featuring a unique talent (recovery skills) on top of their sub-Classes with diverse talents/focuses.
Re:build addresses this issue by removing large-scale heals from the base game, which strengthens the impact of Priest while providing the option of rather going without Heal (i.e. by playing Archer/Swordsman/Scout/Wizard) or with it (i.e. by playing Cleric).


#23

I am a cleric user and i like the new heal mechanic…

:haha:

1 vote for new heal mechanic


#24

I’m not sure what’s middle of nowhere is for you but I did put my heals mostly on the sides of the fighting zone (in challanges)…

…but not just to make it visible. Its main purpose is to not pick it up if you don’t need it…

I’m not sure at all tho if you are talking about that because that few steps to make is not a big deal unless you are fighting yourself in the middle of nowhere…

Also if it was needed I did put it under ppl.

Also I rly don’t get this “■■■■ design” mentality. It is simply a different mechanic. Has its pros and cons…just like targeted heal. Why ppl act like targeted heal is so godlike?
It’s like saying tile based magic attacks should be changed to targeted magic attacks… It doesn’t matter that it is a totally different mechanic that gives more diversity to the game…

The only question is what we want to see on the Cleric base class. What is a totally understandable argument… but saying things like it is a bad design is ridiculous. They pretty much could have give heal tiles to Priest, have targeted heal on Cleric and have that mass heal like skill on Pardoner.
Mass Heal is not a complex or hard to use skill either… AoE heals in general are more lame than targeted heals or heal tiles…

It’s not a real argument against heal tiles either… why? Because heal tiles could be nerfed enough to not allow that. It’s not impossible at all.

Anyway my opinion is…as a Cleric user… that Heal tiles were a good thing just not well balanced. I’m not against the new targeted heal at all. I’m just afraid it is inconvenient to use and also that it will make us look at the UI too much instead of playing the game and that will be especially a burden to those that are not going to be mainly healers… like a zealot-inq-monk.
I still think that especially these builds that are actually not healer builds will suffer the most of this change. While the real healers will have it the easy way… what is a bit odd to me.

I’m also not sure there are actually enough heal skills now on the cleric tree. I mean if heal is actually needed… if a build that has 3 classes in it with heal… Priest-Pardoner-Kabbalist is needed for content then what about the others?
I don’t know as I see right now we either have too much heals or don’t have enough on the Cleric tree.


#25

Because it lets the healer actually heal who they want to heal


#26

That didn’t justify it for me… as I said it has its pros and cons. It’s not better it is different. You just stated one of its pros and that’s it…


#27

I welcome you to generate a list of cons for direct healing, when compared to setting down heal tiles. When you say something has ‘pros and cons’ that is generally a good thing to do anyways.

Keep in mind direct healing has its roots in decades of MMORPG game design. If heal tiles were so good, then other games would have went in that direction over the course of those decades. They didn’t.


KToS General Thread v4.0
#28

I am Exorcist and I love the new heal lol


#29

I’m kinda lazy for that I admit but as I said I think they are simply different mechanics and both are good in a way and bad in a way. We could find out which is better but what I just wanted to say that even if one of them is better…especially for a base class… for me it doesn’t make the other a bad mechanic at all.
So yeah I actually don’t find targeted heal a bad thing either. It’s just new and quite different. It doesn’t rly matter if its cons will be less than what we have now if it totally changes the gameplay what we have now. Also those changes definitely mean for some more than for others so maybe even the pros and cons wouldn’t entirely match for everybody.

Also if I rly want to make comparisons we should include other heals too and how we have totally boring aoe heals with not much difference… Heal tiles are definitely more unique than those.


#30

But this isn’t about ‘pros and cons’. It’s about heal tiles being interesting, unique and fun and targetted heals being standard, overplayed and boring.

Heal tiles haven’t been used in many other MMOS, however healing skillshots, a very similar concept, have been trending in modern mmos, Tera and Gw2 are two examples off the top of my head and I’m sure there are others.

diect healing pros:

  • It’s simplistic
  • It’s reliable
  • can’t think of any others. It’s so basic.

Direct healing cons:

  • It’s really binary, You heal a target or you don’t. there’s nothing interesting you can do with this spell beyond that function.
  • Lacks any kind of mechanical skill expression. Keep in mind that macro is not the same as mechanical skill expression.
  • For games where you click on UI to heal, somewhat encourages you to fight the game’s UI instead of the game’s enemies. This is a philosophy that caused a majority of Gw2’s heals to be entirely skillshot oriented.
  • It’s reliable and simplistic. These are cons as much as they are pros. From a gameplay standpoint, the only possible low moment of a target heal is if you accidentally heal the wrong target or you heal at the wrong time.
  • low interactivity. It’s a spell other players can completely ignore other than seeing their health go up. There isn’t really any thought required on the reciever’s part. This isn’t really an issue design wise as many buffs are similar, but we’re comparing it to tile based healing which doesn’t have this problem.
  • (OPINION WARNING) probably one of the most boring spells you can ever use in any mmo or rpg ever.

Just because other games haven’t tried tiles, doesn’t mean they aren’t a great idea. They’re one of the things that drew me to ToS in the first place and something I would praise the game on, as it’s such a cool and unusual idea compared to what we’ve had all this time.


#31

If that is required after reducing the overall damage you take with enforced armor and new evasion&block mechanics/changes & halved potion CD times combined with the fact that we have, on average, way less HP (so pots have a bigger impact even without high base CON) then either the players are not doing enough to keep themselves alive or the balance is still lacking.

I actually don’t think that pure healers will be required at all. Even a Priest or Kabbalist will probably no longer be required outside of Boruta guild raid and/or demon lord hunts where you can bring a lot of people anyway.

If IMC made healing builds/Classes obligatory in the first place, I wonder how they were going to balance all those possible build & party options that emerge from this change.

With 5 base Classes, a party that covers 1 of each should be able to clear content without the requirement for the Swordsman to “tank” and the Cleric to “heal”, otherwise it’s heavily restrictive aside of the build system that doesn’t promote any of this role play…

I think the reason is simple: Heal had to serve as both damage and recovery skill, the same with Cure, Indulgentia and Gregorate.
Only a few skills ignored this basic formula (i.e. Mass Heal and later on Tree of Sephiroth).

Other MMORPGs usually differentiate between damage and recovery skills, that’s why they don’t use tile-based recovery skills but rather on-target skills.
Oh, and the default game perspective also has to do with this, because while a lot of games feature a free or horizontal-focused perspective, Tree of Savior has a semi-bird perspective, which makes it hard to aim at something else than the ground, so tiles are the easiest design solution.


#32

Yeah i guess priest-pardoner-kabbalist is just an overkill if you get heals on all of them. I’m still curious to see tho if that’s the case.


#33

What you think is ‘fun’ to others is frustrating and prohibitive to quality boss design.

Good thing we will still have
Mass Heal
Resto Aura
Indulgentia
Tree of Sephiroth
Chortasmata
etc etc

Heal tiles were interesting, until every boss was designed around destroying or reversi’ing them as the main reason why they are hard.

In my main Velco group I use heal as a DPS tool, because my group dodges attacks and has general situation awareness. Revive and Mass Heal are enough to keep the group alive.


#34

:thinking::thinking::thinking:


#35

And your point is…?


#36

We can actually take a look at the boss fight in the level 330 dungeon to estimate the impact of the new system.

With bosses now heavily leaning towards one side of damage (either physical or magical) you can reduce the damage with the right armor set, and given the attack difference between Varle King and Velcoffer is about 12% on average, I doubt the damage difference would exceed 30% in total.
That would be between 2000 and 10000 damage per attack with lvl 380 T5 equipment (without damage reduction from skills like Bear, Stone Skin or Magic Shield).

Since lvl 15 Alchemist potions recover about 5530 HP over 15 seconds with 15 secs CD now, we need to exceed this by a lot just to make Heal a necessity.
If we add e.g. an NPC potion with 23 seconds CD, we get another 5530 HP every 23 seconds.

This means the character needs to be hit for over 11000 damage every 23 seconds to even require Heal.
And this doesn’t include potion boost effects (cards) or other potions with higher CD times.

If we consider other potions as well, that number can even rise higher.
I doubt players will get hit so much they actually require more than a Priest in Re:build on the hardest contents unless they’re hopelessly undergeared.


#37

/20adhominemexperthere


#38

k so you are just trolling. Got it.


#39

If showing that someone make this debate completly toxic by just blaming, shaming, attacking people on their intention, when this said person have no clue of it is trolling, then consider I’m a troll If you want. But It’s not only Ccsiko, also Velthari with this famous sentance :

Really healthy conversation over there, and really constructive I would say.


#40

Since all you are doing is fanning the flames instead of offering input, yes you are trolling.