Tree of Savior

@Developer, please read these thread about iToS people's opinion regarding healing tile at Re:Build


#41

By asking, you were the one who did it. You could let my post alone as it was clearly a “stop it please” message.


#42

If I’m to compare between the heal tiles and direct heals, I would very much prefer the new heal now. It makes the cleric take notice of the party more than ever. Due to their single target nature it puts the cleric on the decision making chair where they have to decide which party mate to heal first, whether it is the tank that is continually taking hits or another member that is safe for the the next few seconds. It feels basic cuz it is a no-frills heal, which might irk some players who prefer to see more “innovative” stuff.

In Re:build direct heals have a much longer range, which is slightly further away from the edge of the screen. This is a huge plus vs the current heal tiles we have. Healers can heal away from the danger zone now.

I do beg to differ that heal tiles offer a more interactive gameplay than direct heals though. Heal tiles is by far the most brain-dead healing spell I’ve encountered so far. They last for quite sometime on the field when not used, hence they promote a style of gameplay that doesn’t care about resource management (resources here as in when and where to use it). As long as the player drops it when it is off cool down it is guaranteed that the party can get a set amount of hp returns as long as the players runs to it. The healer doesn’t really need to care much about how much hp the party has at any given point as long as he/she makes sure that the tiles are near the players.

Having 10 heal tiles now is like throwing 20 HP potions on the floor free for anyone to drink until 20+ seconds later where another 20 tiles will drop.

Direct heals switches the playstyle completely to be on the healer’s skill. They need to think whether it is alright to heal the target now or slightly later when they take more damage, and risk being “on cooldown” for the next 10 seconds. It forces the player to learn how to manage cooldowns and make decisions based on the limited resources he or she has.

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@Umineko

The 330dg boss hits really hard btw. I’m running 14-15k pdef/mdef and still can get 3 hit ko’ed by the boss within a span of 10 secs.

Also one thing about using potions, in Re:build we can’t use a potion while being knocked down. This something to note, since some bosses (like 330dg boss) can keep knocking a player down without the player even getting a chance to use a HP potion/elixir.


#43

I play a healing class and I like the idea of the new heals. People often bring up that the heal tiles bring a “strategic” aspect to healing but I don’t really notice anybody playing like that in game. You simply either drop heal tiles directly on the boss or drop heal tiles on or around your party. Half the time, the players in the party that need healing don’t even notice the tiles to step on them. Targeted healing feels more “strategic” in that you have to have an order or priority and not just drop down tiles everytime it comes off cooldown.


#44

In general there is just too much stuff on the ground currently in this game, so boss battles are a garbled mess. I am hoping the removal of heal tiles and other heavy particle effects on the ground will result in better boss design.

FFS - Dragalia Lost, a mobile game, has better boss design than TOS. The top-down, action oriented nature of the game should be a developer’s playground for interesting and tough bosses. Instead we get tile-destroy this, reversi that, knockdowns on everything zzzzzzz


#45

and the other half of time, the one who dont need heal take a few heal tiles and the one who seriously need heal have to run around like a headless chicken

As a DPS or Tank, the idle situation would be receiving heal without moving which will cause chaos. As a heal, it would be better if i could choice who to heal, and i bet condensing all heal in 1 single target would be more effective than having the target running on 10 tiles


#46

Agreed, in a situation like velcoffer where the curse is constantly ticking damage to your party, heal tiles are agnostic to the needs of the group.

Heal tiles can’t tell the difference between someone who only took 2k damage, to someone who only has 2k left. A wise healer can, and will react accordingly.

If the person with 2k life dies and you had your heal ready to go, thats on you. Heal tiles created a more nebulous situation and the path to success less clear.


#47

i think the heal tiles should go to a different class like kabba or something or there should be an attribute at high levels that spawns a few heals tiles when you cast heal


#48

So you admit you were a lazy healer and heal tiles promoted your lasy healing? Sounds like you are proving Remiri right.


#49

Heal tiles are fine on velco they trigger cursed breath / destroy magic circle so you don’t want to use them at all unless someone is going to die. The big problem if they nerf healing too much is that people will just go back to using 2 clerics. With so many class combinations imc will never be able to tune endgame content where bringing 2 clerics wouldn’t work.


#50

For me, I can say I really love the heal tile mechanic. In the first time I played cleric in ToS. I said Wow! THIS DIFFERS FROM ANY MMOs I EVER PLAYED. (This is a character of this game)
But with this new change, it still looks OK for a reason to let healers make more focus to the party members. :slightly_smiling_face:


#51

Post re:build you could rock a full healing build like cleric / priest / paladin / kabbalist and solo heal if that kind of healing output was still necessary.


#52

But here they could keep the old mechanic of heal tiles as you can’t put more than 5 levels into Heal, delete OH and reduce the time tiles are staying on the ground. In this case it would be a huge nerf to Heal, and people would certainly don’t accept it, but is it better to have a single target heal with 2 OH you can almost spam very far away or to have 5 heal tiles you need to manage carefuly as there are many ways to counter it even in PvE content ? Lvl 15 Heal (tiles) with 2 OH is clearly lazy, but lvl 5 Heal (tiles) without any OH, low skill duration is not. For me we just started with a lazy skill that was changed for another lazy skill.

Now there is something I’m a little bit afraid of. Ok, you can leave the danger zone to heal your teammates, but as you have almost 0 skill that have the maximum range of your Heal, you’ll need to come back to the fight, which means it will break the action during gameplay. It’s different from a situation where everyone need to stop DPS ofc. Cleric is so designed as a melee/medium range class that I really feel healing from so far is counter intuitive.

It’s just proving that everyone need to manage heal tiles carefuly, not only the Cleric. If it’s not a good example of cooperation in game, IDK.


#53

Nah, making DPS move to get heals lowers their DPS. This is exactly why I support this change.

Because I don’t like losing DPS to bad healers and also literally this, as the best QOL increase to good healers:

Except nothing about what I said was trolling at all or even contradictory. I’m guessing english is not your native language or your comprehension is just severely lacking.

You continue to argue against points literally no one is making, you got called out for quoting 3 lines of what I said out of context because it contributed nothing to the conversation, and you are too stupid to defend this change that IMC is making that you don’t like, simply because you lack any kind of comprehension whatsoever.

No, it was a lazily designed skill that they are fixing to require thought and decent gameplay from the healer, who had a literally braindead job for the last 3 years in any kind of difficult content.


#54

I mean look at what he said

This is not an arpg this is an mmo-rpg with fully fledged support classes and healers. An opinion like that is not for this game and anyone with an opinion like that should not be here telling IMC how to make the game.

@Csiko yes this change they are aiming for targeted healing is going to show who is a good healer/support and who isn’t which is a step in the right direction and I’m all for this change.


#55

This isn’t a traditional MMO either, and if any traditional MMOs were good anymore, we’d be playing them now wouldn’t we?


#56

On the other hand I think now dps clerics will lose dps because they are trying to target someone every 10 sec… It’s maybe good for others but I don’t think it is necessarily fun for Clerics at all.


#57

They will just need to remember what direction = what party member it won’t be too bad.

No need to target anyone, just takes some getting used to


#58

DPS clerics should focus on DPSing. That hasn’t changed regardless of the heal structure. If you are bringing a DPS cleric to end game content, it’s a pretty safe assumption that you’re also bringing a support/healing cleric with priest or something that has a group heal–which is their focus, not yours.


#59

:thinking: who said that ? Quote it. How funny it is, you say I lack comprehension when you litterally invent things I didnt’ say. Where did I say you were trolling ? Where did I say you were saying contradictory things ? I said your way to debate is toxic and that’s the truth.

I’m quoting Nekorin, are you saying Nekorin is no one ? GoT vibes.

3 quoting that was showing you were unable to take part in any debate, because all you do is attacking people who are against your opinion, even tho you never came with an argument + an example, only and mostly “you’re that kind of person” “you are unable to understand” “you’re incapable to play the game correctly”. It always turn like that with you, you’re totally not aware you talk to humans, and you’re totally not aware you’re not a kind of god who is able to know people just by speaking to them on internet.

And you still continue on ad hominem. Point proven ? No. You’re just showing even more how toxic you are in all kind of debate as long as people disagree with you. Btw I’m not even defending heal tiles, I’m trying to understand which one between both is the best, it’s the goal of any debate don’t you think ? Oh no you’re here smashing your opinion, sorry.

I main support in MMOs since ages, target healing is the most common thing you can find in any kr MMOs, it requires no skill at all, even more when you have 2 OH and 10 sec CD to heal your party. And I’m no god like you oh dear Csiko (you who cherrypick perfectly everything but never answer to what you can’t).

Is that a reason to talk like that ?


#60

You do notice that Cleric is the one taking the most damage in Re:build,right?
Not only has Cleric no longer any skill to mitigate damage (all other base Classes have skills for damage mitigation), it also doesn’t feature any additional Class modifier to fill that role.

So, if we go by the base numbers, bringing more Clerics to a party will only result in more players getting hurt more often, providing first aid with their own Heal skill.

I don’t see what is beneficial in that setting aside the fact that you can now facetank the content because you can just outheal the damage taken.

Sure, bringing two Clerics to a content will probably make it easier if the Clerics prioritize the survival of their team members over their own or have a Priest in their build, but you can no longer expect a Cleric to endanger their own survival to save others by sacrificing their Heals.

It’s also very annoying to keep track of the boss, your own movement&HP&debuffs and your party members in this game, so don’t count on it. Most Clerics like myself will probably prioritize their own survival with Heal (nothing wrong with that, we got that and the other Classes got damage mitigation in exchange after all) and rather focus on killing the enemy, because that’s the fun aspect of the game.

Playing a heal bot is no fun in any game after all, neither in TOS nor in other MMOs.
The battle is the fun aspect, and Cleric provides a lot of fun since you fight always in close proximity to the enemy, which is very engaging with Re:build since you lose most if not all of your innate protection [i.e. Safety Zone].

Again, someone still with the mindset that Cleric is a Healer. Cleric is no longer a Healer.
If Cleric was a Healer, he would have to have 5 OH on Heal or a party-wide Heal like Mass Heal.
Clerics Heal is single-target and based on your SPR for the most part.
Unless you have some high amount of SPR and a higher level of Heal and/or attribute, your Heal won’t recover that many HPs.
And with 2 OHs you can only heal at max 1 party member every 10 seconds since you need the other OH for yourself as Cleric has no damage mitigation skill in comparison to other base Classes.

If being a Healer means that you can heal at most 1 other player that’s just strange.

Previously, the Heal tiles were the best and strongest Healing skill, but after Re:build, Heal became a self-sustain skill to accommodate the near-suicidal gameplay of Cleric.

It’s seriously strange how people can still compare the two Heals, when both skills are completely different and have a completely different role in the game.

Fact is that Heal is not eligible for party recovery and requires additional attention to other party members aside of your own person, your skills, the monsters & their attacks, your buff&debuffs and possibly even item stocks.
Yes, it can recover a decent amount of HP with enough investment & the right stats,
but it’s way too much to keep track of everything in the fight.

This is the reality and main difference between then and now.

Before Re;Build, Heal had a huge AoE, many times the recovery value (lvl 5 Heal with enhancement attribute lvl 100 is as potent as 4 Heal tiles with lvl 100 enhancement attribute) and an easy management.

After Re:build, Heal requires huge investments into SPR, attribute points and dedication to have an effect similar to at best level 5 Heal at Cleric C1 due to the lower SPR- and removed INT-scaling of the Healing stat & no more additional recovery based on the targets CON.

That is why there is no reason to consider this skill anymore for party recovery, unless the party can mitigate nearly the complete damage[i.e. only one party member aside the Cleric is allowed to take high damage every 10-15 seconds], in which case the healing effect is useless as well [pots will be enough]

There is exactly one case where Heal might be enough now, it’s when a Swordsman is tanking monsters for the other players.

first of all, this is not a traditional MMORPG, because you can actively evade attacks of the enemy by moving out of their attack range.
Secondly, there are few fully fledged support Classes [e.g. Oracle,Linker,Enchanter] and even fewer healers [basically just Priest].
Third point is that everyone can have their own opinion. And it’s not the fault of a Cleric if another Class walks into their demise, unless he’s specifically admitted to the party to fulfill that role.

You seem to think that everyone who plays Cleric is just a Heal bot.
Clerics are the most diverse of all Class trees right now, with each Class having their own unique talents and gameplays.
IMC themselves even stated that this was their very goal when they created Clerics in this game.

By the way, if you actually looked at the base Classes and compared them, you would’ve come to the very same conclusion that I came to.
How else do you want to explain the fact that every base Class except Cleric has one buff that mitigates damage through either evading it[i.e. raising your evasion stat] or actively reduces the received damage by a certain percentage with a buff while Cleric in exchange has a recovery skill [i.e. Heal] to recover the damage he additionally received in comparison to the other Classes?

No, this change directs the burden away from Cleric to other Classes like Priest and to the players themselves who are responsible for their own actions.

Come on, how often did I have to watch and/or carry badly equipped people through challenge mode and Velcoffer Nest. The main issue is mostly bad equipment and the disability to evade damage actively even on ranged Classes.
With the decreased damage in Re:build, a proper gear set will be even more rewarding than currently.

No-one can blame others for his own lack of equipment and ability to evade attacks and force them to compensate for that with their skills.

It’s not as if I can force a Swordsman to get Peltasta or a Scout to get Outlaw to tank the monsters or force the Archer to be Hunter/Falconer so that I can have less defence/crit resistance in the battle so I can get away with bad gameplay skill and/or bad equipment.

So why do you want to blame the Cleric if he wants to keep his Heal for himself? That’s pretty selfish considering you got access to mitigation skills on the basic Class the Cleric does not have.

Accept it, the era of bountiful Heal is over, now everyone has to see how he gets along.

I could as well say:" yes this change they are aiming for targeted healing is going to show who is a good survivalist and who isn’t",
it has the same outcome & group for a target, but the point of view is changed.

Unless you’re specifically signed up for Healer (i.e. prob. Priests) I’ve never experienced someone demanding from me to provide survival assistance with Heal.

And it would come over really strange in Re:build either way if you were to be asked to hand over your Heals just because you have them and although you take more damage on average and have only a small advantage (5 to 10%) on max HP over 3/5 base Classes.

But reading that sentence, I wouldn’t be surprised if one day someone came over to me and said:" ey, you have Ein Sof on yourself, so why don’t you just pot so we can split the 2 OH of Heal between the 4 of us?".

Reminds me of the Bantu in South Africa demanding the land “back” from the white Europeans which was never originally theirs but in fact the land of the Khoisan people…