Tree of Savior Forum

Consider giving all classes the ability to dash (making Stamina Points relevant)

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#62

Swordsman strongest? In what area?
Auto-attack? Sadhu (CLERIC) is top last I heard, between it being magic attack (can’t miss, require MDef instead of Def), have Enhance attribute AND can apply Deprotect effect (reduce defense) and on top of that they can do it from range (and one of the attribute gives evasion while out of body so it’s not like they’re that vulnerable either)
Burst? Pretty sure Wizards have stronger burst.

If you just want stamina to be more relevant, here’s a simple solution: Make EVERY action outside of standing still/sitting drains stamina.

And really, the biggest complaint is essentially that Swordsman can traverse the map faster than others, so may I remind you of this video:

Now I didn’t get a companion in beta, so I don’t know if they’ve implemented a universally mount-able companion ( I know it can help in fight at least), but if/when they do, everyone can traverse on mount speed with no stamina cost…

#63

I agree with the give everyone sprint and disable in PvP. That’s probably the best solution. But when you say swordsman is the strongest in the higher ranks. You probably mean during PvE. That’s because the AI is pretty stupid and easy to just run up to and whack. But when it comes to PvP and you’re actually fighting intelligent human beings, I doubt it would go as well.

Since majority of people here don’t like ToS being compared to RO. I’ll compare it to something else instead. There’s a reason why Zerglings are the fastest unit in Starcraft and that Zealots get a charge upgrade. Because without those movement bonuses, they’d get eaten by Marines, no contest.

#64

comparing this to zerglings etc. obvsly fits your name mr/mrs sixpool :smile:

#65

They removed mounting already. Through Rank 6, only Cataphracts and Schwarzer Reiters can ride mounts.

#66

Gotta use what I know. Lol. And why mrs? Why not ms? :laughing:

#67

i’m sooooooo sorry, MS :wink:

#68

Aww ._ .

Just in case, there’s only that one companion in beta right?
If so maybe it being both mount + combat companion was too good, and they might add a different, mount-only companion later on? (like the fat bird seen in the early trailer)

#69

i’d bet the cashshop would offer mountable companions when its out, but thats just me guessing

#70

Here are my thoughts, though I think that we do not fully understand the developer’s intention for the stamina stat - I am confident they intend to do much more with it.

  • I agree that “Dashing” seems like an odd skill to isolate to one class. (consider jumping)
  • I agree that providing Dash in its current state to non-Swordsmen hinder the class from a “gap closing” perspective.
  • I disagree about the initial “burst” runspeed - (netcode in games can often become a problem with entities that move too quickly)
  • I would suggest that some more redundant swordsman tree skills be turned into actual gap closers.
  • I would suggest that all classes be provided “Dash”, but add a mechanic that cancels dashing & disables it for a brief period of time if damage is received.

What would this do?

  • Everyone gets dash (yay)
  • Dash’s base runspeed remains unchanged.
  • Dash is an ineffective gap closer when you are engaged in constant combat for ALL classes.
  • Swordsmen are provided a diverse set of skills to use as activated gap closers. (they get a few, but they need more for being a full melee class)

I think my criteria meets what pseudo is trying to accomplish from a different angle - give everyone the freedom to dash, while not hindering the Swordsman class’ gap closing abilities.

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#71

pretty good point right there, here comes “the but”

that “can’t dash/disabling when taking dmg” would already be needed only for all classes BUT swordsman, otherwise the whole “being kited to death” is just as before again

“but i suggested to give swordsman a skilltree with actual gap closers for that” yes u did, which on the balance side pvp wise might actually work and be ok, but keep in mind that this cripples your overall build cause if u want to pvp u have to take this “WHOLE” tree/rank to be viable, but the other classes dont have to

i also think that would be hard to implement, cause u would prbly destroy existing builds unless u put that skilltree at rank 8+… another option would be to swap out SINGLE underperforming skills in the existing skilltrees that no one will skill into anyways… but i’m not sure where, and if ppl have the sparepoint, but i guess “wasting” a few points to become PvP viable would be okayish

#72

i like a game with a lot of dashes :smiley:

#73

Was nerfed a while back not sure if its still that strong.

@SixPool “Since majority of people here don’t like ToS being compared to RO.”

I think its more a noisy minority then a majority i usually see the same 5 or 6 people loudly complaining about this.

#74

It was only good because of the leather bonus, of which let you dodge every attack and never get hit when using OoB. Also, like others have said, the damage was nerfed. Also, if everyone could ride companions, this wouldn’t be an issue. But I’m incredibly glad they made them into class specific features. Everyone can use them to attack, but not to mount.

And all of my arguments have been PvE specific, of which the swordsman excels. They have the highest sustained DPS due to having resource independent attacks that can hit an incredibly large amount of targets. Burst is fine for a boss fight, but to reach those points you need to grind or kill quest mobs, in which two shotting an entire 5 spawn of mobs is pretty nice, and then being able to do it again without waiting 50 seconds is really nice. Also, if you skill your swordsman with active skills, their burst is fairly equal to that of any other class (with Meteor being an exception)

Once again, my argument is coming from experience. My level 150 cataract friend was out damaging my 200 monk in both total damage and mobs hit (both of us were decently geared). Additionally, I was limited by stam (not too much of a problem), while he was just autoing and occasionally skilling (for incredibly high damage and AoE).

As far as the PvP aspect of it all goes, PvP gap closers need to be automatic, or at least much faster than sprint. Trot is the best gap closer in the game. Also, it’s pretty easy to instantly cc a swordsman running at you, sprinting or not. There are already a handful of swordsmen gap closers (or cc’s that allow for the gap to be closed) that are decent in PvP, but also PvP is mostly going to be a teamfight thing. There’s also probably going to be a handful of more useful PvP skills coming along very soon (looking at you, Murmillo).

#75

Disable every other classes’ dash in PvP and we’re done?

1 Like
#76

No, IMO it’s a bad idea… The right solution would be add mounts that are able to dash and sell them for silver in NPC’s.

#77

I agree with mostly what you said, however this will only work if
a) the gap closing skill is available at Swordsman C1 so that they aren’t forced to go a specific class just for that 1 gap closing skill
b) it has lower CD than all the CCs
c) it doesn’t cost much SP or it costs Stamina instead

I like the idea though.

They have the highest sustained DPS because that’s all they have. They are a DPS class. They don’t have long range AOE spells or long range high damage spells or long range CC that doesn’t make them vulnerable.

If they did this, then you wouldn’t have much sustained DPS as you say in the first part of this paragraph. So it’s either they have sustained DPS if they go buffs or they have burst if they go active skills. If they go half-half then they’ll just be average at both.

2 things about this. First, did you consider monster defense? Like if the monsters were weak against stab attack? If you did, then you should also consider that your friend had to go through AT LEAST 4 ranks of DPS classes before reaching Cataphract. While the earliest DPS class that you could have gone that doesn’t even add to your AA DPS is Bokor. Or Sadhu which the skill set doesn’t exactly help out the Monk class either. Of course he’d have higher DPS because he spent more time in DPS classes than you did. But you have better party-centric buffs and heals and cures or ■■■■■■■ zombies or resurrection. You might not have more DPS but you sure as hell have more utility. I do however think that MAYBE Monks, and maybe the Cleric tree in general should also get sprint. Not sure about it though.

Exactly. So why give them a bigger disadvantage by giving other classes sprint too?

The only gap closers the Swordsman tree has is Long Stride and Trot. In other words, if you want to go PvP, you are forced to go these classes or else you’ll be useless because you’ll just get kited if we give everyone sprint. The only long range CCs they have is Iron Hook which is single target (attribute makes it 3 but makes you unable to use Keel Hauling so useless for gap closing) and makes you unable to move which makes you vulnerable. And Arrest which Idk if it makes you unable to move but again forces you to go Squire. And aside from Arrest, Squires don’t have any useful skills while in battle which makes it less useful overall.

#78

Don’t forget Stomping Foot and Pouncing has some utility in pvp. Pouncing allows you to keep your normal movement speed while attacking, this is great and is like the Cataphract Rush. Stomping Foot is almost as good as Long Stride.

#79

I’m still in favor of making spring only available to swordsmen for PvP, but I honestly don’t think it would be that big of an issue if everyone had it, as swordsmen would most likely be geared for stam (if things remained close to how they are now, aside from sprinting) and could outrun anyone / lots of people would run out of stam quick by wasting their sprint, then be dead in the water. Additionally, we’re mentioning ccing people, but it’s not like every non-swordsman tree gets a CC, when honestly it’s mostly wizards and archers, and even then Hunter is the only one with a hard stop, and Quarrel Shooter has a chance to stun while Archer has a chance to slow, but that’s the extend of it.

Also, once again, PvPing is mostly a teamfight thing. Sure, there will be certain classes that are better for 1 on 1 than others, but there’s no way they can balance it for 80 classes. But for regular PvP, as long as you have a balanced team, swordsmen are fine (also, as of right now, cataphract is really good in PvP).

Also, the Monk vs Cataphract example was just to point out that swordsmen aren’t as bad as everyone is worried they are. Also you seemed to completely ignore the fact that most of my post was about PvE, not PvP. Most skills are entirely useless in PvE. And picking up some active skills will obviously make you less strong in terms of Auto-Attack, but swordsmen by and far have the highest autos in the game, regardless of build.

#80

my gut feeling is that there will be archer and wizard classes that use stamina in the future

#81

I like this idea for melee classes in general, not just swordman… But for wizzards that would be broken, believe me.