Tree of Savior Forum

Class Respecs without breaking the game

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#1

This is a slight variant on class respecs. It’s not that complicated and doesn’t require changes to the any current class/ranks.

The idea comes from FF11’s job system but the implementation in ToS would be a bit different.

Implementation In ToS

Your initial class is permanent (Wizard). All subclasses/circles are obtainable (both Pyro and Cryo). Each class and circle must be leveled separately. This means if you want you can level both Pyro and Cryo and swap between them whenever you want including lower circles.

Example:
Wiz > Cry3 > Chrono3.
to Wiz > Cryo2 > Linker 1 > Chrono3
Cryo2 would have 30 skill points because you already leveled it to Cryo3.
Linker1 would have 0 skill points because you haven’t leveled it yet.
You would then level Linker1 as your current class.

It would be best if all classes could be changed. However, I understand that Crafters/Templars might disagree with this. An alternative would be to make certain classes cost more to remove or take more time/effort… like Everquest’s swapping faction quest. This way only people that want to craft or run a guild will stick with these classes.

Dilemma: If you allow this much freedom with Class Respecs then you will need to give Skill Respecs with them. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise.

Reasoning

Rerolling in the current system means throwing away time/effort on a character. With this new system you can change your build after trying a class without feeling like you’ve wasted your time. You can try all classes and builds without throwing characters away. This also means that nerfs and class changes will not ruin a person’s build and balance changes can be done more liberally. It also gives you more flexibility with your build to see what works without busting out spreadsheets for hours before playing the game.

The only problem I see is that IMC loses money on character slots, but they can give you a reasons to use your slots by improving the pet system. Perhaps giving pets different buffs that can affect your party like Dungeon Defenders. For example a pet could give SP regen, healing, HP, damage buffs, etc.

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Circle reset NEEDED for game to survive!
#2

This removes the purpose of the class system entirely. It would just be another generic mmo. Completely dislike this idea.

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#3

How does it remove the purpose of the class system? There’s still identity based on your initial class. You still have to level each job individually which not everybody will do for all 21 classes. This also gives them incentive to actually balance the game.

What defines the “class system” to you? Permanent choices in a poorly balanced and unfinished game? To me it’s the flexibility in class choice, which you still get with this. How does your expectation factor in with balance changes and more classes/ranks? Do you actually enjoy leveling 280 through the same quests a dozen times? It’s obvious that a lot of elitists will down vote this idea strictly because they want to protect their minmaxed theorycrafted build which is compromised by respecs. You have to realize that this is a game, and meant to be enjoyed instead of treated as a job.

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#4

It destroys the uniqueness of the classes and replay value. Become a wizard and you can do everything in the wizard classes? no thanks.

Ok so we will have 4 different classes instead of 80 classes. Since each of the 4 classes can do everything. Just they will respec for whatever they are doing. Destroys purpose of class system.

I already know that since you even made this suggestion, there is no convincing you otherwise. I wouldnt mind circle resets if they are restricted. I’ll show you something i wrote about class resets yesterday even though your suggestion is different.

If you go in that thread and see my second post you will see the suggestion if you want. I dont really want to make this post massive…

Last thing i want to mention is that even though certain things appear casual in this game, its not meant to be casual. There are plenty of other mmos that are casual if you want it, just about every other one. The purpose of this game isnt to get to end game and grind gear. Its class building.

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#5

Your idea is class respecs once in a while. On the same level as Christmas login gifts or after major balance changes. You view classes as a more permanent thing to your character and not fluid. I don’t see why a Wizard could be a master at all schools of magic, though. Your timeline for character growth is months of work, all summer long like a true grindfest. That’s the style of game that appeals to botters. I’m suggesting more flexible respecs but not so simple as any class you want. You actually have to put work into respecs, but you never lose progress that you invest in the game.

As a nolifer you can still progress more than casual players by playing all 4 classes, grinding money, and leveling all sub-classes, and leveling their expensive attributes. I gaurentee you no casual will do this. You’re turning off a huge market of players who have less time to devote to the game and just want to hit max level but are too turned off by an inflexible system where they’re pigeonholed if they make a mistake. That will kill the playerbase.

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#6

Well, it will be limited to 3 per character and an additional one when new classes are introduced… idk how that is similar to christmas login gifts. If you read my the full suggestion on that thread you will see it more detailed.

Ok. I already said this isnt a casual game and the purpose isnt just to rush to max level and grind dungeons like other games. There are many other games that have that purpose.

When i say the purpose is class building though, i dont mean try to make every single class combination and max it. You may never be able to try a plaguedoctor if you make a cleric. You may never be able to play a featherfoot as a wizard. You could be that class, but someone else picked linker with it and you picked something else. Depends on what you like and what you want to work towards. Allowing everyone to do everything would just make it a generic mmo. With no unique builds.

You obviously didnt read the suggestion. If they make a mistake they can fix it, but they cant completely change builds.

Anyway, chances are we wont see class circle resets in any form for a long time. If they wanted it, they would have had something in already.

#7

I get what your idea is. It’s not a bad one. But it doesn’t take into account balance changes that this game desperately needs. The “plan your build early” mentality doesn’t work when you can’t plan for nerfs or new classes. Maybe you’re right that this game isn’t for casuals based on the way it’s made.

[quote=“Gringe, post:6, topic:213527”]Anyway, chances are we wont see class circle resets in any form for a long time. If they wanted it, they would have had something in already.
[/quote]
I’ll agree with this. It’s rather disappointing especially when there’s a thread with 300+ replies on this topic. I understand the spirit of the grindfest but I guess the game just isn’t for me. Already had 5 people I know quit. Only one of them gave a good review but it doesn’t look like he’s coming back. I appreciate the fact that IMC is trying to fix the problems with the game. I’m a nolifer who spent thousands of hours on grinding games. But I’m only willing to play each class once. I’d devote a lot of time on the game but it’s too hard to do that with the number of balance changes this game needs.

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#8

I just realized that class/circle respecs would probably require SKILL respecs to go with it. I didn’t plan for that, but it wouldn’t work otherwise.

I still support the idea of class respecs in this format. I don’t see them adding full respecs anytime soon, though.

#9

How is this class respec idea of yours even work?

Let’s say I have a pyro. And I want to try cyro, leveled class to max but I realized pyro is more fun. So am I able to swap back to pyro whenever? If yes, then you’re missing the whole point of TOS class system.

There is actually quite a few mmo that offers those kind of thing. It maybe different by quite the same.

I mean in a party. Why would we need a linker when I can swap to a linker myself?
Paladins can swap from tanks to support.
So players that only stick with 1 class will not be invited to a party. Since they’re not flexible enough.

#10

Let’s say you’ve hit endgame and want to try something slightly different.
Wiz > Cry3 > Chrono3.
to Wiz > Cryo2 > Linker 1 > Chrono3
Cryo2 would have 30 skill points because you already leveled it to Cryo3.
Linker1 would have 0 skill points because you haven’t leveled it yet.

It’s probably seems weird and different than the current system. The point is it’s far better than the alternative of full class respec potion.

Example:
Wiz > Cryo3 > Chrono3
to Wiz3 > Ele3 > Warlock1

These builds are nothing alike. Respec potions could potentially allow this craziness. In my respec implementation you can still do this but you would have to put a lot of work into it first. You would have to level up Wiz3, Ele3, and Warlock and do all of the quests.

The only good respec alternative I can think of is to allow players to recursively undo their last class/circle choice.

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#11

Well, you would need a linker because if you changes from dps to support then someone else will have to be the dps

I guess the ideia is quite nice, if only everytime you changes circles you need to relevel, that way people would be able to test other classes, and that would stop people from leveling with “easy classes” than change to “endgame classes” since they would have to relevel anyway…

I mean, someone can level up with an easy path classe, but then when they change they will have to level up again, that would actually be even harder since, let’s especulate that to level rank 2 you need 10,000 xp, and to level rank 8 you need 1 milion, if you change you rank 2 then you wouldn’t need 10,000 anymore, but 1 milion, so people would only change classes if really necessary…

My idea don’t look good also, even to me, looks to painful for someone who just made a mistake… but all theses ideas about rerolling are just personal speculations, we shouldn’t be declining ideas, but trying to make those better.

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#12

He is suggesting being able to level a class and switch it out whenever you want. So you would be able to do every wizard combo whenever you want if you leveled them all. Everyone would be the same :frowning:

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#13

I understood that.

Sorry i wasn’t clear, I put my idea how it would be better in the middle and it got confusing.

#14

Whole build changes seems too much. Maybe you can only change once per rank.

For example:
From: wiz > cyro > c > c > chrono 3

To: wiz > pyro > linker > ele > etc.
Note: you can only reclass once per rank. And could only swap between the two not on an instant but requires you to talk to specific masters before swapping.

There’s still that limitaion that originally from TOS and the respec idea from OP.

#15

Every wizard given infinite time and investment in attributes could be the same. In reality not all players will level every class/circle or spend money leveling the attributes for them. Plus many people are likely to try different starting classes instead of playing with one.

You also have to take into consideration STATS. Full CON Wizard might not be optimal for a DPS build, so you can still minmax a support build or decide to go hybrid and not be as strong in DPS or support.

#16

You can still be a dps if you only have c1 linker. And not fully turn to a utility role

#17

Problem is when you kill level 200 mobs, it’s easy to level rank 3-5 classes. Unless your char get delevel with it, there’s no way this will work

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#18

There’s a lot of possible solutions to that. I guess this is where it could get complicated depending on how you handle it.

  1. Change class XP gain to be relative to your current rank. Possibly scale by some factor based on the rank difference.
  2. Not care and let low level circles level faster. This might promote speed leveling builds. I don’t see that as a problem considering there’s already a very limited number of viable builds.
  3. Put a limit on the max class XP you can get per kill.
  4. Temporarily delevel, derank, and scale your stats back. I think this is a bad solution.
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#19

All of your solutions will just promote 1 style of playing: grinding the hell out of all possible circles you have access to once you reach the rank. It will simply turn this game from quest based until 200 to grind fest from level 1.

And in the end, everyone would run the same build, because everyone will have the same choices.

#20

If you stick with one class you can just do questing. You only have to grind if you want more flexibility in your build. Plus this way you don’t have to explore everything all over again or throw away your Adventure Journal progress.

You’re saying that the game is balanced in such a way that there’s only 1 viable build endgame, per class, which is bad. That or you’re ignoring the fact that some builds do different things better… like pvp, solo, single target, aoe, tanking, farming, etc.