Tree of Savior Forum

IMC, let us repick jobs with TP

Oh that’s mighty convenient. I guess you just get to decide what is reasonable and unreasonable for everyone to quit over, huh? Man, you sure are good at debating. Are we allowed to quit over xp-cards being sold in the cash shop, or would that be unreasonable too? Since you’re CLEARLY the boss of what is reasonable and unreasonable to quit over, and literally tell everyone else what they can and can’t quit over. [quote=“Levan, post:133, topic:210568”]

I’m pretty sure you’re implying it is P2W.
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No, you just WANT me to , because that can easily be disproven. I have said repeatedly it is not Pay-To-Win. That doesn’t make it a good idea. There are plenty of items that aren’t Pay-To-Win that should never hit the cash shops. As I said before, XP cards would be a prime example. You completely ignored that though, conveniently, to tell me, once again, that I was calling resets pay-to-win. Classic parroting.

It’s really all you can do, and it’s honestly just getting funny at this point. You can’t argue against a point, so you just tell your opposition which point they are trying to make and ignore what they actually say.

Alright, well you think everyone should be able to reset nonstop for free with no cooldown, even to other classes. That’s so silly! Why do you think that? See how stupid it is when someone else tells you your own argument? This is literally all you can do.

At this point I’m not sure if you can’t read what I say, don’t understand it, or don’t care what I say since you just tell me what I say anyways. I really am at a loss with you.

I’ll agree with you here for a second, just because your own point is proving you wrong. This will literally happen. If you think it won’t happen, you are beyond learning. If that’s what you call a Pay-To-Win item, then this item WOULD BE a pay-to-win item.

I don’t consider this Pay-to-win, but I do consider that to be a bad situation, which is what will happen if resets are allowed. It’s not pay-to-win, it’s just bad mechanics. But since you insist that I do believe that this item is pay-to-win, and since you believe that those situations would make this a pay-to-win item, you literally consider this a pay-to-win item yourself. Those situations will undeniably happen a lot. Maybe not 100% of the time, but they will happen in huge waves.

I don’t know how you can even say things like this and not realize what you’re saying. You’re literally stating the item as a pay-to-win item under your own rules, while telling others that they believe it is pay-to-win(even though they never said that) and then arguing how it isn’t.

I even put that last part in bold so you might actually read something for a change.

Not that big of a deal. add a couple more dailies. Grind for the rest. The point is it taking effort too. If it still takes effort to do the reset other than just buying it, it wont be so bad. They could add a small bonus xp until you get back to where you were if they feel it needs to be that way.

And your trying to make it sound more complicated than it is. Devs have to think of how they are going to implement it? oh no, too compicated… As for the xp bonus, just apply a buff like the token that wears off when you max the rank. Cant reset a rank that isnt at max level. There needs to be some risk in this game. If you screw up, no get out of jail free cards. Cant just reset circles on a whim and have it maxed instantly.

That’s understandable so long as the effort isn’t outmatched by the fact that you need to pay for something for it already. As you said, exp boosts would do the trick. Of course, I’m guessing it’ll still be up to the devs on how to implement it. If I were a developer though, I would just leave it as is and not rollback and levels. That would need more coding to do than simply resetting and changing circles.

Maybe you should take a step away from your computer and take a deep breath. You’re taking this way too seriously for a particularly petty argument. :wink:

First off, exp cards in the cash shop. I think it takes half a brain that free exp being sold in the cash shop is p2w, that’s so painfully obvious I’m kind of questioning your sanity as to why you would imagine that sort of thing at all, when it’s completely unrelated to circle resets.

And now I ask you… Why would you quit over circle reset? Now that’s one thing I’m concerned about. You aren’t reading my posts at all if you can’t get the gist of the whole point as to why a person would most likely quit without a circle reset than that of a person who would quit because there is a circle reset. Re-read again, keyword there is “individual gameplay”.

I want the whole picture as to why a person would quit in this case if there is a circle reset. I’ve made my point across, it’s time for the people at the other side to provide their points as well, besides leaving the “I’m gonna quit if that happens” statement without even relaying the reason why you’re against it in the first place.

No, you have not repeatedly said it’s not pay to win. At the same time, I give you credit that you didn’t say it’s pay to win. But then you suddenly mention the grounds of pay to win in the midst of our argument. You imply that P2W elements exist in failing games. Now tell me, why does this need to be mentioned in this argument when, as you have stated just now, that circle reset isn’t P2W? That IS the topic at hand, isn’t it? In context you meant it when we were comparing between multiple games, but the specific comparison between games we were making were concerns about reset/respec systems, not about P2W things and stuff like that.

What’s funny is that you’re fuming over a silly argument. Take a chill pill. And the irony of it all is that you go over a lot of my points without reading it yet you accuse me of not reading your points. I address every single point you’ve made but you’ve missed a bunch that I’ve made. I just didn’t mention anything about it because I assume you conceded on those points. Now how’s that for not reading?

Alright, well you think everyone should be able to reset nonstop for free with no cooldown, even to other classes. That’s so silly! Why do you think that? See how stupid it is when someone else tells you your own argument? This is literally all you can do.

And now you even prove yourself that you don’t read. I’ve been talking time and time again about a restricted and controlled circle reset system and it went completely over your head even though I mentioned it in each and every post. What you mentioned is the exact opposite of what I’ve said. Not to mention the complete irony leaping bounds from this statement.

At this point I’m not sure if you can’t read what I say, don’t understand it, or don’t care what I say since you just tell me what I say anyways. I really am at a loss with you.

You don’t get the context of it?

You said that viewpoints are skewed because the topic aims to invite people who are interested in the existence of a TP reset. Yet here we don’t see a vast majority in favor of circle reset, it’s a bunch of mixed opinions. That’s why I disagreed at your point that viewpoints on this matter are skewed because the results talk differently.

And now suddenly you go about, saying circle resets are P2W when you said this statement in the same post:

I have said repeatedly it is not Pay-To-Win.

It’s funny because you just completely contradicted yourself in the very same post you’ve made. Then you proceed to not consider it not pay-to-win? I mean, really? Make up your mind already. And you only mention bad mechanics now, but not in any of your posts, and just kept mentioning or implying P2W at any chance you get.

And there’s a big difference between P2W and abuse. No, changing from a support class to DPS class doesn’t suddenly make you stronger against every other class. You would have just copied another build that everyone else’s using. So where’s the advantage at that, besides saving time and effort? However I also consider this as a particularly bad form of abuse as it lets people bandwagon from one class to another or whatever’s trendy or hot, which is why I’ve stated multiple times that there should be restrictions in place against it.

And again you did not read the multiple points I’ve made about controlled circle resets that should prevent something like those to happen.

Here’s my statement that I’ve been trying to make over and over, because apparently you haven’t been reading my posts enough and it’s not clear to you:

  • Circle resets aren’t pay to win where you get a distinct advantage.
  • Circle resets however are abusable where you can bandwagon from one whole build to another. No, this is not a P2W trait, you don’t get any advantages over anyone else just because you bandwagon to a popular class that everyone else is using. This is the other side that proves that it can kill class variety should there be a circle reset. Circle resets do both - they kill class variety if not implemented right, but they also promote experimentation because it provides a fallback after experimentation.
  • To prevent this and ensure that circle resets cannot kill class variety in that form, restrictions should be in place so that this cannot be done instantly or quickly, or in just a short amount of time.

You might as well be a mascot for irony at this point. Telling other people that I don’t read posts when you clearly didn’t read most of my posts at all stages of this argument.

I was just thinking the EXACT same thing about you. How funny!

I’m not going to explain YET AGAIN. You can go back up and read (assuming you can read). I’m done typing things for you to ignore.

Because it ruins the balance of the game. Because it will eliminate a lot of classes in the game almost entirely during the endgame phase. Because of any of the number of reasons I listed previously, but again you don’t read them. A large part of what makes this game interesting is the class system, which is pretty much pointless once they start allowing resets.

If I go back and start quoting myself will that shut you up? Will you even bother reading it? I highly doubt it. You’ll just tell me once again that it’s not pay-to-win, tell me I’m implying it’s pay-to-win, and then congratulate yourself for making a point no one is arguing against.

I do, however, read your posts, a courtesy you CLEARLY do not share. That’s how I’m able to respond to all your arguments while you just repeat yourself over and over, like some sort of parrot.

No. You haven’t made a point at ALL actually. Your point is purely repeatedly saying it’s not pay-to-win even though nobody is arguing that it is. You have yet to make an actual point.

And yet I’m still so much more calm than you. Calm down, man. You’re going to have a heart attack.

Do you understand how percentages work? I’ll explain it to you as if you were a child because that’s clearly the only way you’re going to learn: Let’s say you go to the new Batman movie. When you get there, you notice that 40% of the people there are wearing comic book T-shirts. Does this mean that 40% of all people wear comic book T-shirts? The answer is no. That means that 40% of people at that movie wear T-shirts even though the likelihood is way higher at that movie that someone would want a comic book T-shirt. The reality is that that 40% is overly represented in this group. The reality is that less people want those shirts, even though this type of event attracts that crowd more. If you can’t understand how that relates to this thread, I don’t even know what to say. I can’t explain this situation any more simply than that, though I feel you still won’t understand.

The restrictions would either have to be so high that everyone would STILL complain or so low that it wouldn’t matter. There’s really no point you should need to reset your character. By the time it takes more time than it’s worth to reroll your character, you already know enough about the game to make fine decisions about your character’s classes. This game is balanced fairly well, and is getting better all the time.

The main people that are going to want to reset are people like the OP who tried to abuse a clearly broken class that got nerfed down to fairness. They weren’t playing for fun. They were playing because the class was way too strong and they knew it. They should know it’s going to get nerfed. That’s common sense. It’s now fair, and he’s mad. So he should be rewarded by saying ‘oh, we know you tried to exploit poor balance, but we fixed it now, so would you like to change classes to something else?’. That’s stupid.

Should people not be at all rewarded for leveling with builds that are more difficult to level? I’m going to bold this for you This game is balanced around different characters being good at different things. Most of the people that rushed to 280 will tell you that they just took the easiest classes they could to 280 just to say they did it, and are now working on their much more difficult to level mains. This isn’t just some conspiracy theory, you can go over to reddit and ask them yourselves, or go to the twitch streams.

Your restrictions are so poorly though out they are a joke. Are you going to restrict transferring to/from every class with an out-of-combat ability? That’s about 1/4 of the classes. Already this would be too many restrictions. So then what determines which classes can and can’t be transferred out of ? Just some random list? Great system you got going there.

If you let people reset 1 circle per month, that’s going to appease virtually no one. That does nothing for a class build at all. All it’s going to do is if there’s one particular skill that gets buffed to be overpowered or ends up with some really strong bug/glitch, everyone is going to quickly take that, then cry when it gets nerfed and demands more resets.

Those are literally direct quotes in order. I can’t tell if you’re a troll or just incredibly stupid at this point, but I’m starting to believe the former.

I just want to add one thing before i go to sleep… this is to the two of you arguing. Both of you have stated that circle resets arent bad as long as there are restrictions. At least i think ive read that somewhere from both of you. So you should be trying to come up with a good idea instead of arguing about nothing.

I think circle resets should only be to maybe fix a few circles that you may be unhappy with and not the ability to completely switch up your build.

You want to be a C3 summoner with cryo3? thats your class. Just like you cant switch from rogue to warrior in wow, you cant switch to Pyro3 ele3 because that would be a completely different class with a completely different playstyle. You would need to start another character if you want this.

I can understand if peoples builds are screwed up because of one or 2 circles and they want to change it. This makes sense to me. Or if they pick warlock and warlock C2 sucks they wont want to completely reroll for one circle.

This is why i think it should be limited to 3 rank resets per character. And maybe an additional one with new classes released. My second post in this thread outlines what i think would be perfect. It was made by someone else though.

Edit: I just thought of something else that would be cool. If they do implement something like i posted, they should give a title to display on your character if you have no resets. Once you use a rank reset you cant use it anymore. this might be a rare thing to have once the level cap is 600 :slight_smile:

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There were people arguing that it is, though. Both explicitly calling it P2W, or buying an unfair advantage over free players.

Yeah, but by then it’s too late because you already screwed up your build the first time. So… you can’t make any more decisions about your character’s classes. But you can reset stats and skill points.

Which means you can live with your mistakes, hide those mistakes by making a new character, or quit the game. Adding a reset option just means there’s one more thing to pick. All of these have pros and cons to them, and I don’t think any should be the obvious best choice.

While I agree many people will want a reset after their main class got nerfed, I’m not convinced the majority would be flavor of the month types.

Unless you think it’s not “fun” to weigh two viable options based on your perceived pros and cons of each, then ultimately committing to a choice you think you might like better. Is it wrong to want to undo that choice if you find out you didn’t actually like what you picked as much as you thought, or one or the other got a buff/nerf after you made your choice?

I don’t think it’s very fun to end up as something I never expected to be. All the research in the world won’t give you active experience playing as the class. You could imagine it might be fun, but then it isn’t really. Or it could be fun to play until it changes suddenly. Doesn’t even have to be about raw power, maybe you thought a skill sounded really cool, but you ended up relying on something else more often and now you don’t need both. You can calculate cooldown rotations and SP management all day, but if it doesn’t feel smooth in actual combat then you’re stuck looking over where the grass is greener.

Not everyone who picks an OP class did so solely because it’s OP. Sure the ones who just happened to like it for something other than power might not want a reset after a nerf, but a significant change could still change their minds. There’s also people who just follow guides for a safe pick because there are no resets. What classes are most wanted in endgame dungeon parties? What’s a safe build that I can’t possibly mess up? To avoid the worst case scenario of being stuck with a worthless experimental build, they research beforehand to find the best one for their role. And all that effort could be for nothing after any given patch.

Not having to spend TP? Easier dungeon runs? More experience with the circles themselves? More money from an economy class?

And if there’s some additional drawback to resets, then there’s that too. If you leveled as a harder class the first time, you get EXP cards and lower level scaling. If you have to grind back up after switching then it could be just as hard or harder. Plus the more drastic your new build is from your old one, the harder or more expensive it is to switch.

I agree that simply feeding in a filled out skill simulator at the click of a button and poof you’re capped again is excessive baby mode. Unless people are paying like $100 a pop with some reasonable alternative for much cheaper then I’m strictly against it. Even still I’d feel obligated to ridicule anyone who used it. It should save how many resets a player’s bought in their info page and give them a permanent title so everyone knows they paid to avoid playing the game.

I think that would appease quite a few people, actually. Everyone who thinks “I wish I took Pelt C1 way back when!” or “I never knew Cleric C2 was mandatory for real content!” would get everything they ever wanted. Or if some patch takes a C1 skill and dumps it into a C2 you never had, breaking your entire build.

You could swap rank 7 every month, or switch your C2s and C3s around to slightly alter your build, or rotate out that C1 you picked up for a single skill that wasn’t really worth it in the end.

Limiting it to one class per month would also be pretty interesting. You could drop up to 3 circles as long as it’s the same class, although it should still be more expensive for 2 and 3. You’d still be more than half of what you were before (or would be by endgame), but with a different base kit with the same core skill, or vice versa.

Out-of-combat classes are fair game, though. Just Templars present a problem with active guilds, but if there’s clear warning that you can’t reset without disbanding the guild then it should be fine. Anything else wouldn’t really be viable since you obviously can’t use the OoC skills once you reset them away, and switching back and forth quickly becomes worse than having an alt or reselling tokens. A reset would only be desirable to switch to/from such classes once and never again (or a very long time after a much thought).

+1 to this. Not everyone has the time to level again a new character. i’m just saying.

How would you guys like this system: On rank up you select one class as usual and level it - however the decision is only final when you select the next class advancement.

At this point you could still swap it around without a loss so people can test if they like something - if not allright you can swap away a single time.

I dislike this idea.

Honestly I am fine with a complete class reset, so long as you have to level your class level back up from rank 1.

It’s unfair otherwise and easy to abuse. Even if you implement weekly single circles (which is just timegating for the sake of timegating) or limit the reset to a single circle (which is half-baked. Either do a full reset or don’t do one).

I have no problem if people want to try a whole new class path out on the same character, but they should have to put in the work to get there again. I don’t want to see a bunch of full support builds get to the top without having put in the work. It’s just promotes builds which are the fastest leveling to be used and encourages a reset into something more viable at endgame later. That’s simply not good.

Class reset is a too strange concept for ToS and should be not even considered.
Also please do not refer to leveling as “Work” games are entertainment, not work. And anytime you’re not having fun you probably shouldn’t be playing. There is no endgame, just a wall for future areas, quests and classes.

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Hm I can see us being able to pick another class in the future. I believe we spoke about this during CBT when some of us agreed that it would actually make IMC a lot of cash to be able to pick a new class.

I’m fine with it but I do think there should be some kind of punishment for resetting a class. Like losing an entire rank for doing so.

I dislike the idea of a full circle reset. However, single circle resets with a long ass cooldown would be nice to repair “small” mistakes without having to start all over again. You name the requirements (lots of Silver, TP, quests, praise Satan).

Also, since then. Has IMC stated anything in regards of this subject? It’s been a while since Close Beta and I know this was suggested before. The huge problem I see with this is code-wise, mostly.

not a fan of changing our circles

Afaik only in arena… and it was a needed change. I actually think it would be needed in GvG too.
Also it didn’t turn out to be bad…just not OP anymore.

I understand that it can also mean someone would want to change to another (current cookiecutter) class…and I’m not even against it if it is done the right way.

Just don’t overdramatize this. Because actually it was needed and also expected for PD.

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Just make it full class reset and limit it to two per year or something.

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yes! just 1 per account will be enough.

I don’t agree at all. I can understand resetting skill points and stats, I think those should be available, but maybe more expensive to do so as at current it’s very cheap and can be done over and over.

However, resetting class choices would defeat any real effort put in the game. In my opinion it’s a very small jump from “reset your class choices” to “give us max level potion for TP”. It really does take away from any MMO’s experience to eliminate the effort/leveling process. I don’t even like most MMORPGs these days as the leveling is a chore rather than an experience with the game. Max level is there and achievable in a day most of the time and it’s boring as crap.

Allowing a trivialization of the class system would hurt the game immensely and I doubt any long term player agree, only players who play MMOs for a couple of weeks and quit would agree that it’s wanted.

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This is such a farce.

Having an ability to change classes (especially if it’s a paid option) does not automatically sully and ruin all feeling of accomplishment of effort you’ve put in to your character, nor does it have this effect on others.

Proof?

Look at the hundreds of other mmos that allow build/talent/spec/whatever resets for either a cash item, in-game currency, or plain just talking to a dude for free.

I have never once in my life seen anyone complain about the ability to do so.

I guarantee that you will not feel slighted one single bit if I were to buy a class circle reset and use it. You won’t even notice. You won’t even shed a tear.

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