Thank you for sharing a screenshot. Looks Pay2Win to me.
Hats should be for cosmetic purposes, for fun. I enjoy gathering mats for making hats and giving them to a friend or something for their birthday.
Y’know, it’s something that has sentimental value to me. I don’t know why anyone would want to take that away from the game.
It also doesn’t effect the players performance in any way. Better yet, let me wear my hats on every character via account trading.
Do you have a link? I wanna see it too. If what you claim is true, 2011 was just planning stage of some sort, they probably abandoned the idea because it is not profitable and the game will not progress.
ATENTION HERE
class hats, so what am i going to do if i want to wear my dragoon / wugushi hat??
hmm kay - thats something i dont support
hate gambling stuff like “random boxes with ultimate weapons by a 0,00001% chance for 5 dollar each”
this is maybe even worse cause you cant get the stats elsewhere but weapons you can farm for
i smell riot xD
I think you can enchant them too, no? :x
Q12: In my opinion, this is the most important question. The game is Pay to > Win or Pay to Play? Will gamers’ skill make a difference?
(Everybody was laughing at this question)
imcGAMES: The thing with our CEO, Kim Hakkyu is he does not like Pay to Win.
Kim Hakkyu: The last thing Tree of Savior will be is Play to Win.
Here you GO.
Jokes aside, that is not quite the same as “cosmetic only”.
Don’t misquote me.[quote=“RISKorRIOT, post:19, topic:152551”]
From what I’ve heard… is that you can purchase TP with in-game currency… …I’ll see if I can find that info again… …stands to be like I remembered some people mentioning it…
[/quote]
I stated very clearly it was not confirmed and I had to look into it.
As to getting back to the topic. If the drop rate is enough to bring a substantial amount of the said item onto the marketplace. the actual pay to win complaint would go away. Spending money to get something that highly populates the player marketplace, even if at a higher price, isn’t that bad.
The best cash shop(this is in within current assumed elements) will have all items available to paying customers and non-paying customers if it can change player attributes.
This is definitely no joke, when such things like Magic Scrolls exist, which are definitely P2W.
I’ll search for the exact quote, I remember there was an interview with Kim himself.
oh god bless the least thing the game gonna be is play to win - time to sell my car and get those juicy scrolls xDDDD
I wonder if it was translated poorly but Kim actually said The last thing Tree of Savior will be is Play to Win. Meaning he does not like Pay to win but have no choice but to pay to win at some point.
posted this in another thread already but here again:
a nice video of a company making a game 100% pay to win - they done it on purpose!!! there you can purchase items to win - well if that isn OP xD hope IMC does the same
Hi Daenerys and @Shadeborn
I agree that on first sight it does not seem to offer as good stats in the long run. However, those are not strong arguments for the following reasons (stated by other commentators):
(1) ‘Small’ p2w is just as unacceptable because it sets a bad precedent for other p2w items
(2) The fact that the bonuses are difficult to get because they are so random and require a large amount of $ is not a good thing at all - in fact this means the p2w gap is even more shocking than before. A game should not allow ‘whales’ to be ahead.
So I agree that while increasing the drop rates (I think it should be way higher than 1/50 by the way, given the number of scrolls required to even get a decent roll) would even out the problem, the fact that it exists, is, in principle, wrong.
Next point - oh look it’s the whiteknight squad who always defend things blindly no matter how obviously wrong they are. It’s like they forgot that actually defending your game when it doesn’t deserve to be defended accelerates its trip to the graveyard faster:
@fitzfeliz
@Senpaikunchanperson
@jynxie10
Standard whiteknight arguments:
Giving incentives in items to it make appealing to paying customers? Unless you want this game to be P2P or B2P. F2P games are always P2W.
Response: There’s a difference between supporting good business practices, and supporting a business for the sake of it, even when it does things that are detrimental to its longevity.
P2W games have always been proven to fizzle out fast - they suit a short term business model in this industry where a game builds up some hype and quickly fizzles out after capitalizing on whales.
I’d like to hope, and I think most people here share the same sentiments, that Tree of Savior is vastly different from the generic MMOs we are plagued with nowadays, and itself has stated that it wishes to differentiate itself from the others. So I think that sends a very strong message that this is NOT the kind of path that it wants to take - and it wants to last in the LONG TERM.
So yes, a paid player can receive more benefits than a free player, but these benefits should not confer in-game advantages, simply because we want the game to last and provide a positive experience for all players. Contrary to popular belief, free players can actually provide extensive benefits to a server, just in non-monetary ways. Those who studied economics might be aware that F2P players provide several ‘positive externalities’ - spillover benefits such as player population, quality ideas and suggestions, leading communities etc. Yes I am aware that it also brings along its own host of problems but my point is that the issue is far more complex and it is not simply a case of P2P GOOD, F2P BAD.
(For the record, I am a ‘paid player’ who bought the most expensive package. I mentioned this even though I personally don’t think this matters, but some vindictive people will find a way to bash free players in whatever despicable way they can find)
Except, the chances of getting all those bonuses are incredibly slim. Slimmer than the chances that a magic scroll will drop from a boss cube.
Response: The lower the chance, the more RNG it is. The more RNG it is, the more unacceptable it becomes because it simply devolves into a p2w gamble.
So, if the scrolls actually gave you guaranteed stats, that would be straightforward p2w. Nobody disputes that. Now that they give you a chance to get good stats, how does that make it any less p2w, except that you’re now required to pour in far more cash to get the same result? If anything, this increases the divide between the ‘whales’ and the rest of the community.
By the way, the fact that the chance is slim makes it even worse for the free player who gets the scrolls at least 50x slower than a paying player.
Response: Like the token issue, while it is good that free players can access it, I think the whole idea of paid players earning silver from cash which gives them an in-game advantage is problematic. But that’s another issue for another day.
Response: See #1. There are plenty of ways, innovative and practical ways, for companies to make a big profit without resorting to p2w. As I’ve said, there’s a big distinction making money, and making money ethically. Nobody opposes that a company wants to make money, but people oppose HOW. And if the game wants to last, then it’d better not step its foot in the grave by implementing this.
Solutions? I’ll just compile some that others have already kindly offered.
I personally am in favor of #5. If they wish to reimplement it, at least discuss with the community first. I never liked how this was secretly ‘sneaked’ into the founder’s package in the first place in a one-liner. Such things ought to be openly and honestly discussed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/treeofsavior/comments/387kc2/full_ftg_interview/
Another one.
유료화 계획은 미정 nxp로 이용하는건 생각하지만 구체적으로 정한건 없음 과금러랑 비 과금러의 격차는 가급적 지양하고 있음
Monetization hasn’t been finalized. We’ve discussed a cash shop [NXP is their CS currency] but nothing is final as of yet. We’re trying to avoid having a gap between paying players and non-paying players as much as possible.
Since you clearly know how to make business practices care to give some example how to float this game if it is not going to pay to win? Development cost money unless you want TOS to not make any progress at all.
Edit: Please dont make me read a book im pretty sure you can sum up your thoughts in a couple of sentences.
We’re trying to avoid having a gap between paying players and non-paying players
That one is the best.
You guys puff up as if we are talking about Maplestory’s cubing here.
Gonna go ahead and White Knight on this thread. I’ll try to not use any infactual information or fanboyism in my post, but if I do, by all means call me out on it.
@everyone: First off, I agree that it’d be better (For us) if these scrolls didn’t exist in the Cash Shop. We differ though, because I don’t believe that this is a form of noticeable P2W, and I don’t think it’s worth causing a commotion over. The bonuses are minor in the Rank 7 stage, so these are only really an issue for before then. The only exceptions to this are the +AoE Ratio stats, which should be removed from there. The drop rate being raised a bit on them from the in-game Cubes too, especially since the dungeon entries were limited.
Now let’s run through some of these posts (I wanted to respond to half of the thread but post-length and time, so I’ll pick out the important ones):
This is not close to the equivalent of having those actual stats, because those stats give more than just HP/Damage, scale higher in numbers based on how many points you have invested into them and off of your current Rank, and are used by certain skills in the formula to scale their effectiveness.
Virtual gambling not involving the return of real currency, is legal (at least here in the US).
The skill awakening does not do this for costumes; it only does this for gears. People will do this for one or the other, if not both.
No worries; the current class balances plays a much bigger role in Guild Warring than these stats could hope to reach.
^This is the main issue, if not the only one, with our Cash Shop and most MMORPG’s lately. “Anything tradeable”. Someone can buy as much of the tradeable item as they want, sell as many as they want, and they’ll be rich. Players definition of “P2W” varies person to person and has a lower/higher limit, but allowing someone to make 100m Silver in one day from selling Slug Hats and pour it all into gear enhancing means he’s “winning”.
Here is the main issue, and reason, these scrolls exist in the Cash Shop. This game cannot survive in the long run with a cosmetics-only approach. I’m not saying all games, or all MMORPG’s, but this game specifically. The cosmetic options it gives you are too minimum for the majority of players with the ability to pay to care. There is no dye system, we’re limited to Costume + Hat instead of Costume + Hat + Back + Shoe + Weapon/Shield, and the hope for having SFX/Pet/Minion cosmetics is slim at the moment since we don’t even have the option to change our skin color. Our skin color!! So something like this was bound to be introduced into the Cash Shop sooner or later in some form or the other if it didn’t already exist.
However, despite all of this, this is the first company I’ve seen to make such a drastic change to their plans in favor of the community (The Founders changes), so it’s not unlikely they won’t adjust the magic scrolls in some way. BUT IF YOU ARE GOING TO PETITION FOR THEM TO CHANGE SOMETHING, BE REASONABLE, OR NOTHING WILL CHANGE AT ALL. Like others have said, have them limit the stats to 1-2 per item, and remove the AoE Ratio bonuses. But do not ask them to remove it from there completely because I guarantee you that will not happen.
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what exactly did he win? is there an announcement “MisterX won” ?
if so i wanna win too - and again selling my car to win - everyone shall see that i won! yay