posted this in another thread already but here again:
a nice video of a company making a game 100% pay to win - they done it on purpose!!! there you can purchase items to win - well if that isn OP xD hope IMC does the same
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Hi Daenerys and @Shadeborn
I agree that on first sight it does not seem to offer as good stats in the long run. However, those are not strong arguments for the following reasons (stated by other commentators):
(1) āSmallā p2w is just as unacceptable because it sets a bad precedent for other p2w items
(2) The fact that the bonuses are difficult to get because they are so random and require a large amount of $ is not a good thing at all - in fact this means the p2w gap is even more shocking than before. A game should not allow āwhalesā to be ahead.
So I agree that while increasing the drop rates (I think it should be way higher than 1/50 by the way, given the number of scrolls required to even get a decent roll) would even out the problem, the fact that it exists, is, in principle, wrong.
Next point - oh look itās the whiteknight squad who always defend things blindly no matter how obviously wrong they are. Itās like they forgot that actually defending your game when it doesnāt deserve to be defended accelerates its trip to the graveyard faster:
@fitzfeliz
@Senpaikunchanperson
@jynxie10
Standard whiteknight arguments:
- āItās okay for payers to get something because they paidā
Giving incentives in items to it make appealing to paying customers? Unless you want this game to be P2P or B2P. F2P games are always P2W.
Response: Thereās a difference between supporting good business practices, and supporting a business for the sake of it, even when it does things that are detrimental to its longevity.
P2W games have always been proven to fizzle out fast - they suit a short term business model in this industry where a game builds up some hype and quickly fizzles out after capitalizing on whales.
Iād like to hope, and I think most people here share the same sentiments, that Tree of Savior is vastly different from the generic MMOs we are plagued with nowadays, and itself has stated that it wishes to differentiate itself from the others. So I think that sends a very strong message that this is NOT the kind of path that it wants to take - and it wants to last in the LONG TERM.
So yes, a paid player can receive more benefits than a free player, but these benefits should not confer in-game advantages, simply because we want the game to last and provide a positive experience for all players. Contrary to popular belief, free players can actually provide extensive benefits to a server, just in non-monetary ways. Those who studied economics might be aware that F2P players provide several āpositive externalitiesā - spillover benefits such as player population, quality ideas and suggestions, leading communities etc. Yes I am aware that it also brings along its own host of problems but my point is that the issue is far more complex and it is not simply a case of P2P GOOD, F2P BAD.
(For the record, I am a āpaid playerā who bought the most expensive package. I mentioned this even though I personally donāt think this matters, but some vindictive people will find a way to bash free players in whatever despicable way they can find)
- The chance of getting good stats are so small that it doesnāt matter.
Except, the chances of getting all those bonuses are incredibly slim. Slimmer than the chances that a magic scroll will drop from a boss cube.
Response: The lower the chance, the more RNG it is. The more RNG it is, the more unacceptable it becomes because it simply devolves into a p2w gamble.
So, if the scrolls actually gave you guaranteed stats, that would be straightforward p2w. Nobody disputes that. Now that they give you a chance to get good stats, how does that make it any less p2w, except that youāre now required to pour in far more cash to get the same result? If anything, this increases the divide between the āwhalesā and the rest of the community.
By the way, the fact that the chance is slim makes it even worse for the free player who gets the scrolls at least 50x slower than a paying player.
- You can buy the enchanted hats on the market place.
Response: Like the token issue, while it is good that free players can access it, I think the whole idea of paid players earning silver from cash which gives them an in-game advantage is problematic. But thatās another issue for another day.
- P2W is fine. Companies need cash.
Response: See #1. There are plenty of ways, innovative and practical ways, for companies to make a big profit without resorting to p2w. As Iāve said, thereās a big distinction making money, and making money ethically. Nobody opposes that a company wants to make money, but people oppose HOW. And if the game wants to last, then itād better not step its foot in the grave by implementing this.
Solutions? Iāll just compile some that others have already kindly offered.
- Increase drop rate VASTLY
- Lower the number of stats it gives from 3 to 1
- Lower the number of headgears applicable from 3 to 1.
- Decrease the price to a 5 TP item (so that free players can afford it)
- Remove the damn thing
I personally am in favor of #5. If they wish to reimplement it, at least discuss with the community first. I never liked how this was secretly āsneakedā into the founderās package in the first place in a one-liner. Such things ought to be openly and honestly discussed.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/treeofsavior/comments/387kc2/full_ftg_interview/
Another one.
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Monetization hasnāt been finalized. Weāve discussed a cash shop [NXP is their CS currency] but nothing is final as of yet. Weāre trying to avoid having a gap between paying players and non-paying players as much as possible.
Since you clearly know how to make business practices care to give some example how to float this game if it is not going to pay to win? Development cost money unless you want TOS to not make any progress at all.
Edit: Please dont make me read a book im pretty sure you can sum up your thoughts in a couple of sentences.
Weāre trying to avoid having a gap between paying players and non-paying players
That one is the best.
You guys puff up as if we are talking about Maplestoryās cubing here.
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Gonna go ahead and White Knight on this thread. Iāll try to not use any infactual information or fanboyism in my post, but if I do, by all means call me out on it.
@everyone: First off, I agree that itād be better (For us) if these scrolls didnāt exist in the Cash Shop. We differ though, because I donāt believe that this is a form of noticeable P2W, and I donāt think itās worth causing a commotion over. The bonuses are minor in the Rank 7 stage, so these are only really an issue for before then. The only exceptions to this are the +AoE Ratio stats, which should be removed from there. The drop rate being raised a bit on them from the in-game Cubes too, especially since the dungeon entries were limited.
Now letās run through some of these posts (I wanted to respond to half of the thread but post-length and time, so Iāll pick out the important ones):
This is not close to the equivalent of having those actual stats, because those stats give more than just HP/Damage, scale higher in numbers based on how many points you have invested into them and off of your current Rank, and are used by certain skills in the formula to scale their effectiveness.
Virtual gambling not involving the return of real currency, is legal (at least here in the US).
The skill awakening does not do this for costumes; it only does this for gears. People will do this for one or the other, if not both.
No worries; the current class balances plays a much bigger role in Guild Warring than these stats could hope to reach.
^This is the main issue, if not the only one, with our Cash Shop and most MMORPGās lately. āAnything tradeableā. Someone can buy as much of the tradeable item as they want, sell as many as they want, and theyāll be rich. Players definition of āP2Wā varies person to person and has a lower/higher limit, but allowing someone to make 100m Silver in one day from selling Slug Hats and pour it all into gear enhancing means heās āwinningā.
Here is the main issue, and reason, these scrolls exist in the Cash Shop. This game cannot survive in the long run with a cosmetics-only approach. Iām not saying all games, or all MMORPGās, but this game specifically. The cosmetic options it gives you are too minimum for the majority of players with the ability to pay to care. There is no dye system, weāre limited to Costume + Hat instead of Costume + Hat + Back + Shoe + Weapon/Shield, and the hope for having SFX/Pet/Minion cosmetics is slim at the moment since we donāt even have the option to change our skin color. Our skin color!! So something like this was bound to be introduced into the Cash Shop sooner or later in some form or the other if it didnāt already exist.
However, despite all of this, this is the first company Iāve seen to make such a drastic change to their plans in favor of the community (The Founders changes), so itās not unlikely they wonāt adjust the magic scrolls in some way. BUT IF YOU ARE GOING TO PETITION FOR THEM TO CHANGE SOMETHING, BE REASONABLE, OR NOTHING WILL CHANGE AT ALL. Like others have said, have them limit the stats to 1-2 per item, and remove the AoE Ratio bonuses. But do not ask them to remove it from there completely because I guarantee you that will not happen.
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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
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what exactly did he win? is there an announcement āMisterX wonā ?
if so i wanna win too - and again selling my car to win - everyone shall see that i won! yay
I believe they should just raise the drop rate to like 3% or something. I think thatāll make a lot of people happy. Will make grinding worth it, and the hardcore f2p players will be able to match the whales.
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Still waiting for alternative solutions from these people who dont like the P2W feature. Making other people think for solutions from your selfish reasons is just unsightly. Im pretty sure IMC is listening from suggestion if you guys want this P2W to abolish altogether.
The million dollar question is: How would IMC make money from this game to continue its development without resulting to P2W feature?
Like I said, the definition of āP2Wā differs from person to person. But generally if weāre really trying to find a definition of āP2Wā, then Cash Shop tradeables would be the winner and most of the MMORPGās have just that. Throw $5,000 USD into the game, sell the tradeable item, use all of the money to repeatedly try to upgrade all of your gear to +40. All of this done within 24 hours. Basically, weāve been playing āP2Wā games all our life.
Also notice that I quoted āP2Wā everytime I used it for that example. See what I mean, āsephiā?
p2convenience seems pretty stable to me. I think they should focus on costumes and convenience.
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Waiting for any responce from IMCā¦ 
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The stats that can be had, even on perfect rolls, should not make or break a character, and I doubt the bearing it has on your build will be of much note. I understand itās the principal, but, do read on for a second.
Is this currently Pay for Perfection? lol yeah, but Pay to Win? Pffft. At lv600 I wonāt be barred entrance to a dungeon just because I donāt have +MATK on my head. Likewise I wouldnāt be barred if I had 3 MATKās on my head but they were all low rolls istead of each being a perfect 42. BUTā¦
Your plays and your build will be what see you through. Perf head enchants are as much for epeen as they are min-maxing though. As I said before, being able to lock the bonuses from being re-rolled so that it isnāt completely RNG would be nice, but in truth the āP2Wā concerns can be easily dispelled by simply allowing these scrolls to drop much more frequently in higher level dungeons. Fixed. We donāt even have end-game yet so this may already be the case in their planning. People are so worried about min-maxing their hats in early game when it is late game that players should concern themselves with perfect gear.
Itās good to talk about it, donāt get me wrong, always good to raise concerns. And it is a valid concern as a precedent. But suggesting it be removed when the feature itself is actually a good thing? I like the idea of stats on my head and Iām sure others do too, even if weāre not sold yet on the delivery of service as we understand it. All weād need is IMC to say āThe scrolls appear later in game with a much higher drop rate.ā and the thread wouldnāt have any p2w ground to stand on. There should be a fee if someone wants to try to twink out a character in the early game with what should be end-game perfect rolls. The fact the fee is there may only be as a convenience to help reduce farm time in late-game when the scrolls drop more frequently.
Iām just saying itās good to let frustrations be known but we shouldnāt jump to conclusions until we have the full story.
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Of course. Much obliged. Tldr; The point is, many people have many innovative ideas. We can brainstorm as a community what we can come up with.
Standard cosmetics
Note that Iām aware that this alone isnāt sufficient to sustain income.
- Hair Style and Hair Colour
- Voice packs
- Eyes
- Costumes
- Weapon Skins
- Skill visual effects
- Emoticons, dances and social features
- Colored Text
- Mounts
- PvP Taunts
- Forum Titles, Contributor Titles
- Housing, Construction and Furniture
- Custom content! (See MS2)
- Animated NPC sprites
Stuff that benefits paid players as quality of life
- Megaphones
- Storage space (expandable for free players too, since this is a heavily PvE centric game)
- Name Change
- Server Change
- Gender Change
- Guild Leader Change
- BGM Choice and Selection Jukebox
- āPremiumā BGM
- Shared Storage/Bank
- Access Storage from anywhere
- Access Shop from anywhere
- Learning attributes offline
- Access to Beta test server
- Vastly increased hat drop rate (Untradeable)
- Warp Discount, or Warp āFlyer Milesā System
- Ability to save Warp Points (like /memo)
- Ability to test a class before you job change to it
- Autoloot
- Ability to check drop rates / drop tables conveniently in-game
- No/Lower Warpstone cooldown
- Party Colour coding
- Premium Map/Lounge with all npcs conveniently located in 1 spot
- Allow Crafting classes to skip the crafting duration
- Instant relisting in the market place (Currently both free and paid players have some time before the listed item appears)
- Premium āRepairā NPCs scattered at convenient locations, rather than having to go to town.
- Buy shops
- Slightly higher blue mob/white mob chance (questionable?)
Look, the point is that the skyās the limit. Iāve mainly listed conventional solutions, but there are so many people with so many brilliant ideas. Letās not limit ourselves.
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Just replying to things that Iām seeing in this thread that are incorrect.
You can not trade magic scrolls through the auction house, it is purely a TP item, so you must spend TP to roll RNG stats.
You can not sell TP through the marketplace, or in any kind of way.
You can sell TP Tokens, which is not premium currency, rather a form of subscription, via the auction house.
You can sell/trade headgear that have been scrolled with a magic scroll.
That said, I donāt agree with the idea of being able to stack hats that are pretty much the equivalent of multiple gems and high iLvl gear bonuses. Itās a good idea to stop the RNG here, preemptively stopping future cash RNG stat boosting items.
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lemme guess, Nexon is secretly in charge & ToS is dead within 3 months?
such news, very wow, like cake? ~,|~
Iām already having cancerous luck with a Naryu Soul Shield 6 in B&S and I have to face RNG in ToS again? D:
Selling Tokens could be considered far more P2W than RNG stats though (especially if our release has adjusted drop percentages since this is all speculation before the game even comes out for us lol)
I meanā¦ think about it. Letās say I have $100,000 USD sitting around. Mommy bought me a jet last year and Daddy gave me this as allowance.
Without risking my account at all I can purchase thousands of Tokens, sell them all on the market, and have what most would call an infinite amount of silver. Well. Now then. What can I do with that?
Shall I buy my character the best weapon in the game? How about hundreds of them so I can get one to +50. But then Iād have to worry about armor, so I better do that too.
The stat gains from perfect rolls are nice, for sure, but will praying to RNGesus for those rolls make me winning in the game?
Pay to Win is that which enables a user with disposable income to become notably stronger than a F2P player by opening his wallet. The RNG scrolls do drop as per IMC, meaning time is the investment, and both payers and f2p are on equal footing. The RNG basically promises though the f2p wonāt get perfect stats whereas the payer is able to spend infinite currency until he gets perfect stats. I understand this. But drop rates alone will determine if this is even a valid concern.
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