Tree of Savior Forum

Can Staff please comment on plans for PVP?

General Discussion
#64

@STAFF_Yuri
I really like to organize things so let’s organize this conversation.
Reading the texts I notice that there are problems in PVP that everyone wants to be solved with brevity and most of the problems already have suggestion of the community, they are:

1) Balancing between classes.
Sugestions: Normalizing attack and defense, at least on TBL.
Powercreep is insane on PVP.

2) TBL Rewards:
Sugestions: Rewards are meaningless. They do not drive people to play, and those who play quit very quickly, improve the reward with useful items in the PVP.

3) Few hours of action for players focused on PVP:
Sugestions: Make a PVP free zone 24/h open and a TBL queue that is always open too (but has no reward), like a “friendly match”

4) Lack of PVP content that values ​​teamplay (Premade Queue)
Sugestions: Make a differentiated queue of TBL where premade groups can participate.

#65

Remove block from con would be the easiest solution.

Gems/Skills and gear then are the only possibilitys to get Block.
Pelt/Hop/Murm builds should have the highest Blockrate anyway.

Maybe imc can ad a “Blockstate” to every shield ingame like def/mdef.

1 Like
#66

I have no idea where you got Armor break from but that’s not what’s being talked about on that post.

#67

I’ve never said it was overpowered, I said it is a good class and that I get killed by druids even without chortasmata. Please stop blowing things out of proportion. And also, play TBL with your druid and see how good it is.

#68

But you don’t die to the Druid aspect of it!

Like I could make a Cataphract 3 Squire 1 Lancer 3 and go around destroying everyone effortlessly and then say “Squire is OP, I barely have to try to win the fights I take”

However if I’m not winning because of Squire skills it doesn’t mean anything.

My build is Cleric 2 - Bokor 2 - Monk - Druid 3 - PD 2

Outside of gem feud, it is a decent build, that focuses on Druid being the star of the show, yea sure now that I have BDS and Pandemic Attribute, PD is a big part of it to, but mostly, this is a Druid build, you got Double Punch to replace auto attack and Monk CC to keep em on grass. Bokors Effigy sets up grass with Marionette and Froster Lord (less needed now that Thorns exist but still very good, especially considering the lag I experience casting any skill.)

But you put my decent build in Gem Feud, it does nothing. It could support others because Disenchant is a ridiculous skill. Ofc I’m not gonna do that… obviously. On it’s own though, it does nothing. The only way this char gets a kill on anyone is Thorns - BDS - Disenchant - Hexing - Incinerate - Effigy spam.

1 of those moves is a Druid move, it’s the CC that allows you to easily land the BS move that makes this work.

But if you wanna kill someone as Druid you need to be so much stronger than them that the Chortasmata poison does it on it’s own.

Now outside of Gem Feud, Druid is a lot better sure, but everything it does is defensive with exception to Lycanthropy and Chortasmata/Carnivory

The grass doesn’t move, so unless CCed it doesn’t matter. Lycan does do a lot of damage and gets a lot of free block pen but it means sacrificing the defense of Transform, and it’s easy enough to avoid everything but the 4th skill.

I’m not gonna play TBL because it’s garbage unworthy of being called PvP. And the top 10 is still filled with PvE builds lol, as well as the occasional Revive/Disenchant caster.

But the thing I hate most about TBL is it’s team PvP and you don’t even get to choose your team. Team PvP is already pretty bad (2v2s are fine if you choose partners because of how you can coordinate but beyond that yuck) but not being able to choose your allies means you lose rating because enemy gets 3 CON invested individuals and you get a 20k hp Mergen and a Swordsman who knocks people out of your ■■■■.

Support builds especially ■■■■ me over, supports always benefit dumb people more than they do people who put real thought into their builds. You can get a Priest PD and all they have to do for a bad player is cast revive, aspersion, stone skin/capella and disenchant anyone you CC. And that’s good for those players, they’re provided with all the defensiveness they weren’t smart enough to take on their own, and they easily 1 combo thanks to disenchant.

Give that to someone like me, I’m not dieing to anything that a priest can save me from because I already do what I can to survive, and I don’t need disenchant because I’m capable of playing around not 1 comboing someone. For most, if they get a support class, it’s great because they get babied a bit, but for me, having a support on my team is the same as having a 2v3.

There are some things that even I benefit from, but not enough to justify having a disadvantage in numbers.

And numbers advantage is the lamest way to win/lose in PvP. I have no respect for those who “PvP” in numbers. Play honorably, win through skill, intelligence and hell even gear, anything is better than teaming up on others.

PvE’rs : Well gosh, we could, we could you know like… Group Up! AND HIT IT TIL IT DIES!

#69

Yeah we do? Telepath into grass? It happens all the time in TBL.



Let’s see: PVP, PVP, PVP, Most definitely PVP, PVP, PVP, Super PVP, 2 PVP fun memes, and #10 is somewhat pve? Can’t tell his class since I never seen him.

Yeah, I don’t really see any PVE build there except 10 if I get a closer look. What’s wrong with disenchant? It’s a counter to a bunch of builds that rely on a ton of buffs. I’d love to get rid of people’s Gyvenimas buff. You need 10 points on it to make it effective, anyways. I do agree they should add party based TBL instead of random.

I guess you’re opposed to GvG in general. Are you also opposed to 15v15 GvG back in the old days? God, my teammate killed this person when it’s supposed to be a 1v1! I don’t know why you have that way of thinking on a TEAM based game mode.


Play honorably and win through skill uh

#70

*sweats nervously as I telepath people into my grass while having Blind Faith on*

Actually, Lycan provides better Defense and HP values than Transform Large + Insect by 10% and 25% respectively

1 Like
#71

Hi #10 here. To clarify my build is cleric2-priest2-pard1-druid2-pd3 100 spr rest con and it is optimized towards mostly TBL (partially GvG). I wouldn’t really consider it a PvE build. . . but for like healers and stuff at the point of r10 cleric3 priest2 and some spr is all you really need to heal in most cases now so it’s borderline? pve but all TBL clerics “should” run at least c2p2 so. . .
I’m mostly a harassment build (1 point on all damage skills besides chortasmata), okay damage until I land Disenchant.
lvl10 telepath because i have no room on my skill keys to cater to transform skills :). just a casual 20 secs of telepath totally not broken and annoying af.
I picked up TBL like this week. . . plan to mess around with it more.

2 Likes
#72

I had a different top 10 in my mind that had lasted many previous weeks but my point still actually stands because third place is a guy who is only focus on damage, and IIRC has less than 60k hp. You can call him PvP if you want but regardless of his intent, he has a PvE mindset, players like that, lose the minute they can’t one combo you.

Which is actually brings me to my next point Bhikku typically occupies the top slot, and while yes he does trans his armor, use a shield, and invest in CON showing that he’s not incapable of understanding the value of durability in PvP. He still relies entirely on damage for everything, which is fine, he can play the game how he wants, but it doesn’t really make me want to compete. I don’t see Bhikku and think, “Now there is someone worth beating”

Bhikku could actually be any player on his account, as long as they do just 1 thing the same, it doesn’t matter who it is, and that one thing is playing the game as if it’s a tab target game, as long as you play the game like a tab target game you’re basically the same as Bhikku, the only difference is gear and maybe a slight bit of knowledge if you for some reason don’t know certain easy to learn things (like abuse against stealth and rotations)

Now that’s not me ■■■■ talking Bhikku, I’m sure he’s very successful with what he does, it’s just not what makes me wanna compete, it’s the same as PvE to me, I don’t wanna compete against a mindless bot, Idc if they are hard to beat, if I’m not competing against a player that I view as competition then why bother.

@Wooshin Lycan doesn’t gain current hp, and with it’s insanely low duration it’s a bad idea to bother healing it, so unless you have like heal factor and a nearly off CD but currently active large insect transform going, you won’t make use of the hp boost, you do get the defense yes, but I argue with how bad Lycan is, it’s only worth 1 point due to it and IIRC you only gain 10% on the 1 point. So while yes technically at it’s best Lycan provides durability, in a real scenario that one would be in comparing the two, Lycan is much less durable.

I understand the new attribute makes it a little better but I still don’t think it’s a smart idea to invest into it, especially with a PvP build

#73

lol no not true t all i play this game only for pvp and at about 80k health
bhikku is my mom

1 Like
#74

i think yr talking abit too much. about stuff u obviously dont know much about

1 Like
#75

Are you not the same Linker from Gem Feud who takes 2 ticks from Smash Bullet?

#76

yea sure im not entirely full con and squishy but i get mvp almost every match win or lose and im consistabtly high on tbl wen i play that week. back off te pvp threads you dont even do it

#77

This is exactly what I meant, that PvE mindset, of “I do DPS” DPS is the least important thing in PvP. There is a minimum amount of damage that you need which varies based on un-avoidable damage and the targets healing (So it’s actually an always changing number) but once you have it, it’s not important anymore what matters is your durability, and your outplay-ability. You’re not that invested in durability, your utility is mediocre, everything you have is geared towards damage, you treat the enemy like an NPC and as soon as they find way to get out of it, it’s hopeless for you.

It’s not just you though, this is how a large portion of the community in ToS thinks. It’s fine, like I said play as you like, but I don’t define players like that as PvPers, yes you PvP and by literal definition, one who is PvPing is a PvPer. However your mindset is no different from any of the PvE’rs and I would view one with a superior mindset as a superior player, regardless of result. Idc if your gear or class is good, I wanna compete against good players.

Which is actually why I was so mad at Randy when he KSed me, that fight was really fun because the player didn’t one shot so he was forced to try more and a few times in gem feud I’ve gotten some really nice fights with players like that and it’s far more satisfying than firing off a Smash Bullet at a geared PvE type and then watching them die to it. (Unless the player is SugarLips, I guess that’s pretty fun just because he’s the one the mobs of players all swarm around for the “Group PvP” so it’s like, “Ha now what will you sheep do!” , but that only happened once) In general the best fights are the ones where the opponent is forced to try and by extension forcing me to try in order to win.

#78

And I will define you as a pvper when you play TBL :3

1 Like
#79

Lol, this is funny.

Wants to find good opponents to go up against

Mad that I’m killing people in a team-based pvp environment

Multiple people see you KS other people

I see you killing people during a raise

Also see you killing weak players by scouting them with cloak and then smash bulleto on them

gets mad at me when I kill your weak opponents

Complains about some druid bug so plays on a
non geared PVE BM with no block pen

xdd

I’m sorry, but I have NOT seen anyone get mad in a PVP environment because they see someone having a fight and they get shrekt in a 1v2. I’m glad they have multi combat, I don’t wanna be a full support just being a retard magnet the whole game.

1 Like
#80

I don’t KS others intentionally but I had had a few instances of not realizing a fight is happening due to the original fighter being too far away so I’m not perfect, I’m so sorry to all I’ve KSed.

I don’t kill people during raise, except Ennislol or whatever but I’m just tired of that guy interfering in my fights, he doesn’t deserve the courtesy he won’t extend to me.

I do kill weak players, people feed you when you’re not even trying sometimes, the only way I can compete for the 750 in a losing game is to target the twohand users who can’t block me.

I have block pen, just not enough.

#81

k guys this has gotten way off topic and may be detrimental to the goal of the thread pls stahp

3 Likes
#82

Don’t worry bro I got you. Wouldn’t want you to like, not know.

3 Likes
#84

Well, just two cents (or maybe a bag full of coins, as this will probably get too long):

— Also, I want to thank you for your attention and commitment, @STAFF_Yuri

PvP MODES:

  • TBL Point System: PvP Arena shouldn’t be a grind. Either equalize the points earned from wins and losses, relate the points gained to a MMR system (beating people with a better rank earns you more points) or just keep giving more points to wins in comparison to the points lost after losing a game, but at a small rate (2 or 3 points more for wins than lost matches - not the best approach, but still gets a good feeling for the average player that stays at a 50/50 win ratio)

  • TBL Rewards: Any player that is devoted to PvP is constricted between gearing up through High Level content and actually enjoying the game on modes we like (TBL, Gemstone, GvG, Guild Wars). If you’re trying to stay relevant on TBL you’ll waste 2-4 hours per day ON TOP of the time spent raiding/grinding. This way the ideal way to reward people on TBL would be quality of life stuff, things that can cut our non-pvp time: Multiply tokens, Enhancement Coupons, Silver anvils and Velcoffer Vouchers. Just make sure to give enough of these to lessen our PvE burdens (don’t even dare giving just one multiply token!)

  • 24 Hour TBL Training: enable TBL without ranking points when the official TBL is down.

  • Commit to Guidelines: A healthy format of any competitive game is guided by rules designed by its creators. Plan ahead, announce those guidelines and tune the game around this commitment. For example: “One Hit Kills arent ok, two hit combo kills are our red line” or “no form of CC should last for more than X seconds”. With this manifesto we get to know what we have to face and how to gear up and you’ll have a much better time balancing things (and get some heat off you - the devs - as you can always say “that build clearly violates our PvP Guidelines, you should’ve expected that nerf”)

  • TBL Gear Normatization - my comrades explained that before on this tread

  • PvP Rules equal between modes - enforce the same set of rules and numbers around every PvP mode (and FFS remove Elixir use)

GEAR AND STATS

  • The cloth / leather / plate tryad is flawed - the balance between cloth and plate in pvp is dictated by the metagame. Currently there’s more incentive to wear plate than before and Zaura’s Card price change on market reflects that. Leather is always left behind, its bonuses are PvE centric and only serve as a counter to DEX based characters - the same type of people that should be considering Leather pieces in the first place. Either buff Leather set bonuses or give it a better defense ratio, buffing both defenses. If you’re too afraid that setting leather defenses as the average between cloth and plate would turn leather the default option, try a lower value, but make leather more tanky than cloth.

  • Every class tree must boost more than one stat - that argument got stressed by a lot of responses here, archers need 3 stats, swordsman need 2-3, clerics and wizards need only one. Thats overpowered and boring. Decrease the ratio of CON <-> HP for magical classes, nerf block or buff the DEX < - > Block Pen ratio, move Block Rate from shield slot to glove slot to make it symmetrycal, buff raw defense gems. Even better than that, make every stat relevant to every tree, this way you’ll improve one of this game’s strongest points - character planning / build test / theorycraft. Also, remove block from CON. (i’m not implying the system needs every change on this list, but a good mix of those changes)

CLASS BALANCE

Jesus, we can get over months telling you examples of imbalance. But in general, fix your bugs, make every skill responsive and fix the hitboxes to match skill animations. Stop bloating a small number of classes with every single tool needed for PvP. I’ll use the most blatant offender on current meta as example:

Retiarius C3 is like enabling godmode on an imaginary command console. Retiarius C2 pre Rank 10 patch was almost ok. It lacked tools like unblockable Disarm and maybe Throw Rete flying to ground attribute, but instead you liteally gave it ALL. I’m an archer PvP player, so i’m used to being a masochist and honestly, i’m usually fine with this, but this Retiarius fiesta is going way too far.

Pull Rete was a skill test before, if they caught you with your counters down, you were dead, creating an engaging gameplay. Instead it was turned into an “I WIN” button. You just messed up with one aspect that made our TBL matches engaging and gave us a lot of bad OHKO moments. Revert this ■■■■■■■ silence change and look after skills on other classes that create one sided situations like this and balance them. Engaging PvP, at least on my opinion is all about skill and knowledge, about creating opportunities and forcing opposing cooldowns.

Forcing every competitive swordsman into retiarius C2 or C3 you also deleted High Crit characters from TBL. Back to back controlled or lucky bursts of damage could be a good response to the revive aspect of Vital Protection, but you removed that possibility for physical classes, cause we cant crit those Retiarius, and you obviously wont let our white damage get high enough to burst twice/thrice, or every character not packing revives would struggle at pvp as an obvious consequence (ok, you’re kind of forcing us into this scenario actually, but you shouldnt =P)

And please, please, please. Stop hating archers for no reason. Currently both Sage and Retiarius have skills that make them too tanky against archers. If archers were kingpins at PvP that would be a reasonable move. But giving counters of this degree of quality against a way too underepresented class tree was a big mistake. Its not only a straightforward way to counter a class tree, but the game also lacks counters at this level of stupidness against other classes primary aspects (it’s 2018 and we have no class that can really mess up healing ratios)

You don’t even have to delete those bloated toolboxes if you want, instead, you could simply spread those tools across the entire class trees, giving to underepresented classes and creating build diversity.

Enough, I’ll stop for now, but I’ll probably come to this topic again to talk about the state of archers.

Thank for the patience needed to read this long post =****

4 Likes