Tree of Savior Forum

Can Staff please comment on plans for PVP?

General Discussion
#81

k guys this has gotten way off topic and may be detrimental to the goal of the thread pls stahp

3 Likes
#82

Don’t worry bro I got you. Wouldn’t want you to like, not know.

3 Likes
#84

Well, just two cents (or maybe a bag full of coins, as this will probably get too long):

— Also, I want to thank you for your attention and commitment, @STAFF_Yuri

PvP MODES:

  • TBL Point System: PvP Arena shouldn’t be a grind. Either equalize the points earned from wins and losses, relate the points gained to a MMR system (beating people with a better rank earns you more points) or just keep giving more points to wins in comparison to the points lost after losing a game, but at a small rate (2 or 3 points more for wins than lost matches - not the best approach, but still gets a good feeling for the average player that stays at a 50/50 win ratio)

  • TBL Rewards: Any player that is devoted to PvP is constricted between gearing up through High Level content and actually enjoying the game on modes we like (TBL, Gemstone, GvG, Guild Wars). If you’re trying to stay relevant on TBL you’ll waste 2-4 hours per day ON TOP of the time spent raiding/grinding. This way the ideal way to reward people on TBL would be quality of life stuff, things that can cut our non-pvp time: Multiply tokens, Enhancement Coupons, Silver anvils and Velcoffer Vouchers. Just make sure to give enough of these to lessen our PvE burdens (don’t even dare giving just one multiply token!)

  • 24 Hour TBL Training: enable TBL without ranking points when the official TBL is down.

  • Commit to Guidelines: A healthy format of any competitive game is guided by rules designed by its creators. Plan ahead, announce those guidelines and tune the game around this commitment. For example: “One Hit Kills arent ok, two hit combo kills are our red line” or “no form of CC should last for more than X seconds”. With this manifesto we get to know what we have to face and how to gear up and you’ll have a much better time balancing things (and get some heat off you - the devs - as you can always say “that build clearly violates our PvP Guidelines, you should’ve expected that nerf”)

  • TBL Gear Normatization - my comrades explained that before on this tread

  • PvP Rules equal between modes - enforce the same set of rules and numbers around every PvP mode (and FFS remove Elixir use)

GEAR AND STATS

  • The cloth / leather / plate tryad is flawed - the balance between cloth and plate in pvp is dictated by the metagame. Currently there’s more incentive to wear plate than before and Zaura’s Card price change on market reflects that. Leather is always left behind, its bonuses are PvE centric and only serve as a counter to DEX based characters - the same type of people that should be considering Leather pieces in the first place. Either buff Leather set bonuses or give it a better defense ratio, buffing both defenses. If you’re too afraid that setting leather defenses as the average between cloth and plate would turn leather the default option, try a lower value, but make leather more tanky than cloth.

  • Every class tree must boost more than one stat - that argument got stressed by a lot of responses here, archers need 3 stats, swordsman need 2-3, clerics and wizards need only one. Thats overpowered and boring. Decrease the ratio of CON <-> HP for magical classes, nerf block or buff the DEX < - > Block Pen ratio, move Block Rate from shield slot to glove slot to make it symmetrycal, buff raw defense gems. Even better than that, make every stat relevant to every tree, this way you’ll improve one of this game’s strongest points - character planning / build test / theorycraft. Also, remove block from CON. (i’m not implying the system needs every change on this list, but a good mix of those changes)

CLASS BALANCE

Jesus, we can get over months telling you examples of imbalance. But in general, fix your bugs, make every skill responsive and fix the hitboxes to match skill animations. Stop bloating a small number of classes with every single tool needed for PvP. I’ll use the most blatant offender on current meta as example:

Retiarius C3 is like enabling godmode on an imaginary command console. Retiarius C2 pre Rank 10 patch was almost ok. It lacked tools like unblockable Disarm and maybe Throw Rete flying to ground attribute, but instead you liteally gave it ALL. I’m an archer PvP player, so i’m used to being a masochist and honestly, i’m usually fine with this, but this Retiarius fiesta is going way too far.

Pull Rete was a skill test before, if they caught you with your counters down, you were dead, creating an engaging gameplay. Instead it was turned into an “I WIN” button. You just messed up with one aspect that made our TBL matches engaging and gave us a lot of bad OHKO moments. Revert this ■■■■■■■ silence change and look after skills on other classes that create one sided situations like this and balance them. Engaging PvP, at least on my opinion is all about skill and knowledge, about creating opportunities and forcing opposing cooldowns.

Forcing every competitive swordsman into retiarius C2 or C3 you also deleted High Crit characters from TBL. Back to back controlled or lucky bursts of damage could be a good response to the revive aspect of Vital Protection, but you removed that possibility for physical classes, cause we cant crit those Retiarius, and you obviously wont let our white damage get high enough to burst twice/thrice, or every character not packing revives would struggle at pvp as an obvious consequence (ok, you’re kind of forcing us into this scenario actually, but you shouldnt =P)

And please, please, please. Stop hating archers for no reason. Currently both Sage and Retiarius have skills that make them too tanky against archers. If archers were kingpins at PvP that would be a reasonable move. But giving counters of this degree of quality against a way too underepresented class tree was a big mistake. Its not only a straightforward way to counter a class tree, but the game also lacks counters at this level of stupidness against other classes primary aspects (it’s 2018 and we have no class that can really mess up healing ratios)

You don’t even have to delete those bloated toolboxes if you want, instead, you could simply spread those tools across the entire class trees, giving to underepresented classes and creating build diversity.

Enough, I’ll stop for now, but I’ll probably come to this topic again to talk about the state of archers.

Thank for the patience needed to read this long post =****

4 Likes
#85

I think pvp matches could give us a certain quantity of EXP. Some people would love do their leveling through pvp

1 Like
#86

Too bad if you hit 390 you get less TBL matches because the matching system is also broken - it prioritizes lower level people so if you are 390 it is harder to reach high ranks.

1 Like
#87

Please don’t blame Retairius for being OP. Its one of the Best Class that imc Made and most important thing is it has its OWN IDENTITY. It live up to its name, not like matameme, lol

> What broken is the PVP high power creeeeep Damage factor which has been a problem after Rank8 came.

Lets put it this way. Imagine if the Ret whole Damage Combo has the same Damage as a Rank3 class. Then retairius will really become a true green icon rank right?.

This is the reason why i prefer the Post Rank7 TBL season cause the Damage output of each class doesn’t exceed beyond and only bugged skill can tho that season has it own flaws too (CC Fiasco etc,) But if you compare both season the rank7 season is slightly better cause not everyone can 1hit you. (f**ng w3linker3 if you guys remember)
Also IMC tried to standardized the gear in TBL before for short period of time, it didnt help. why? cause the Skill factor of dps class are just to high and the gear cant cope up also tbl has a lot of bugsss.
Tho i must say that IMC did a Good job on buffs changes and CC changes to all class if you compare it before, Yet still disappointed to the damage skill part in PVP scene.

If only They Fix that part it would have been different story.

also #NOTO1HITKO

1 Like
#88

Missile hole was very nerfed, I don’t think nerfing it more is reasonable (I say this as an archer main). The bigger issue archers face in general is block pen–which swordies (most) have to deal with as well. I also don’t think that anyone is “forced” to go reti. Lancer does just as well, but again, this is the block pen problem rearing its ugly head.

Archers (outside piper or musket) and the other swordsman classes (outside reti/lancer) suffer from the block meta being stupid.

This. Classes shouldn’t be nerfed because they’re unique, other classes should be balanced accordingly in their own way.

But then again, with all the unique tools sage has, why does it have a oneshot nuke? Isn’t this supposed to be shadowmancer’s specialty?

1 Like
#89

I don’t really care about TBL so I didn’t read that and I don’t think Leather needs to be changed but Idc if it is.

^ I say that so I can say

I agree with most of what you’ve said but absolutely not to nerfing Wizard hp. A huge issue in almost every game is how much of an advantage damage has over durability. Nerfing OP defensive stuff like say revive is fine, but as far as just “tank” stat reduction, even for the most overpowered of the classes, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I invest entirely into CON on every character I own and rely on gear for more CON as well as all other stats needed. Today I was on my Onmyoji in loot chance gear that does not have stats and a rod that doesn’t have CON because I’m tired of rerolling it, that Onmyoji has less than 60k HP.

I would hate to see a world where that gets even worse. Wizards are bullshit with their range and their damage and insane CC while still being the class to have the second best defensive skills. However an HP nerf is not a good change. In fact I would argue that if they’re range was made reasonable, they should get an hp buff.

#90

@Sarutobi
I absolutely agree, i even leveled a Retiarius and I enjoy the gameplay and how cohesive its skill set is. I just used as an example of imbalance because its fresh on everyone’s memory and because its the class that everyone is testing during the reset season. As I said, I don’t have a problem with the tools, I’m just proponent of giving some of these passives (not the base skills) to other swordsman classes that suit them.

The damage aspect of those skills only became a problem because we can only expect to hit a few times on PvP. Block/Evasion/Immunities are prevalent to the point that every skill must be able to burst our opponents or everyone would be healed to 100% by a single HP Potion or crappy heal.

The main problem of PvP is the stat imbalance and the block ratio. Without huge block rates the devs will be able to tune damage down and bring Retiarius (and every other PvP mainstay) damage to it’s expected levels. If we only nerf Retiarius, Lancer will be tha target of PvP players rage, because it will be the next in line of sucession, as its the second best at dealing with this game’s design problems.

And that’s just an example. I’m not focused on current swordsmans. We had many offenders and tier 0 builds before. Revenged Clerics, W3 Linker3, Gemstone Sages, late R9 Murmillos, One Shot Archers, the list goes on.

@Csiko
Yes, Missile Hole was nerfed to the point that I almost didnt mention. I just used as an example of IMC design trend of narrow PvP skills that serve to counter just one class tree. That’s lazy design, and targeted towards the class tree that gets the short stick on PvP for at least 2 entire ranks. Even worse, its a targeted class-wide hate without clear counterparts (aside from Inquisitor).

Finally, this “decisive cooldown” design implemented on Retiarius is fine and enjoyable, they just need to remake other classes kits to bring this gameplay to other players and tune overpowered passives.

#91

Thing is, i’m not asking them to remove the skills. i’m asking them to remove the OP attributes.
Retiarius will still be Retiarius, all skills will still be there and the gameplay won’t change even a slightly bit.
just let ppl fight back and counter. wouldn’t it be more fun that way?

#92

PVP in this game is no fun to begin with, Who wants to play a pvp if you just got 1HIT? its 2018 already, PvP should not be like that. LIKE i said The retairius is not the problem here and the attribute is part of it.

You can Always fight back after the silence if they cant 1hit you, if they cant 1hit you, again if they cant 1hit you and again if they cant 1hit you… Reducing the power creep ( or the overall damage that a skill can produce) gives you time to think, asses and counter attack, rather than just die w/ 1combo.

Reason why i give this an example:

Put it this way, A whole combo of retairius to you after net, you got silence and the ret do its dps and after the combo the overall damage that inflict you is only 20%(lets says your hp is 100k and thats only 20k) doesnt it give you a chance to fight back?

This apply to all classes in this game, What broken is not the skill or the class itself, its the Power Creeep, the high Skill factor inside pvp scene. HIGH damage means you have less time and less chance to fight back means 0 game play, means no brain pvp.

And again if they fix that part it would have been different story.

also #NOTO1HITKO

#93

you can barely kill a geared Retiarius these days because they are full CON and have the short CD revive skill to use. let alone 1 hit.
Crit-type can’t burst them down, high evasion char can’t dodge, and they have high block due to finestra+high guard+full con.
power creep is one thing, op attribute is another thing which both need to be fixed.
unless you’re suggesting that only Retiarius damage should be nerfed then i don’t see this as the fix to the situation we have now.

when you nerf everyone equally, the one on top will still be on top.

#94

Well that’s what we’re saying about PVP balance in general–you do in fact need to be geared to kill other geared people. This is not unique to reti.

Retis are very easy to dodge and deal with; it’s called dodging with jumps and timing. Their damage is about as strong as any other very geared class, they are just unique in that they have several gap closers, which swordsman needed badly.

1 Like
#95

eehh, Everything you just said can be easily be countered if your inform enough to other class skill or if your class is capable to counter.

Lets break it down.

If they have Vital Protection ON Then stall before you attack or if your damage is capable to proct it then do it right away( There is alot of class that can 1hit anyone especially if your not geared enough to compete to high geared tier battle even geared players can be 1hit by geared players even if your full con),
they can only use it once per match too and the duration of it is not that long.
(A wise ret always use vital protection if they about to die or they about to lunge a attack. That just a decent skill to protect themselves from incoming skills that can kill them and i dont see thats OP if you compare it to A class that can heal full hp or a class that has a lot of immunity or a class that has aoe immunity)
If they have high block then get High Block pen gear and maybe get some dex.

Well, FootSwordies has a problem before in hitting high evasion character like its forces swordies to get accuracy (str) and block pen (dex) the same time just to get your skill hit your enemies, and i dont think 5-7 seconds of 0 accuracy will hurt that much if the power creep is fixed.
It was so hard for swordies to compete to other class before cause they have nothing excpt hook. lol

Well im not suggesting a nerf of damage on retairius if you read what i wrote. What im talking here is the general Solution for the big problem in tbl since rank8 came. Which is the POWER.
And getting out the attribute that makes a retairiusc3 a retatiriusc3 will not solve the problem here.

And im not saying its the only problem here, if you see IMC did a good Job on fixing the Buffs and the CC in pvp scene and it was great and they still continue on fixing those but getting rid of a special attribute that makes a C3 class a c3 class i dont think it will help.

LOL! if you dont work enough then you will never be on the top.

#96

screenshot_20180724_00001

let’s assume that i’m not well-geared enough to talk about things.
my other sw char also has 9.5k patk. yet both of my chars can’t kill a full-geared reti3 with all out full combo.
while the reti needs only 1 easy-to-use Rete and 3 Trident Finish to kill which i have no chance to counter because of the silence.

#97

Reti3 has nothing to do with you being able to kill them, unless you are getting blocked by Dagger Guard which you can wait out.

It seems that your problem is that your class choices don’t result in enough damage to kill a geared anything, let alone reti3, which is more a problem with you than them.

Don’t get me wrong, rete3 is dumb, the pull shouldn’t have a silence, but if you cant kill a rete3, then how can you kill anyone else?

#98

because Retatius3 can go full CON without having to worry about Acc/Pen that’s why they’re tankier than others?
and i’ve never even once said that i can’t kill anyone else. let’s just not assume what i can or can’t do shall we.

you see, i’m not even complaining about all these stuffs in the first place, it’s another story.
i’m only complaining about Silence and Vital Protection, that’s all.

#99

Isn’t Disarm blockable (since it deals pDamage), or did they change that at some point while I was away?

#100

I guess but then they are a one-trick pony - if you bait their rete out they wont be able to hit anyone with decent block or evade with anything else…seems risky.

Silence is broken OP, Vital protection is pretty short duration unless you rank it up but I don’t think any retes put more than 1 point in it.

They changed disarm to be unavoidable and unblockable - which it needed.

#101

:confused: Some of us get too heated about ToS PvP. Don’t be upset guys, truth is PvP is in a terrible spot right now. I’ve wanted to PvP in ToS literally everyday from since the day the game opened. Truth is most of the PvP guilds died before TBL even came into existence with most of those players quitting the game due to lag and the problems with bugs but mostly the lack of balance.

Anyway my suggestions are…

  1. All hard CC no longer than 3 seconds. Hard CC meaning stuff like Freeze, Stop, Silence, Knockdowns/ups, Sleep, Stun, Suppression, Hooks, Coursing, Raise. Anything that causes you not to have any control over your character. Reason being it’s not fun being unable to do anything for long periods of time.
  2. Status ailments like Slows no longer than 6 seconds if it reduces a great amount of movement speed. Having someone slow you for extremely long periods of time without being able to do anything about it really is bad.
  3. I believe Bleeding, Massive Bleeding, Poisons and other damage over time(DoT) effects should be a stacking kind status ailment, similar to how Retiarius’ Blandir Cadena: Fatal Wound attribute works. Creative ways or unique ways to stack the DoTs would be great. The damage of DoTs really should never be more than 10% target hp loss/sec. The DoTs should have some form of scaling from Stats but nothing over the top. With that being said antidotes need to have an 8second or so cooldown and be able to be applied to every kind of DoT that does “high” damage. Reason for this is everyone should have a chance to either apply the DoT if you class has them, or remove the DoT if it gets applied to you. Many of the older players should be able to remember when an archer could use Broadhead from Fletcher class then use Camouflage from Scout class and kill an opponent without any real trouble or counterplay from most classes since most people died in 3-5 seconds. That was really unfair.
  4. Invincibility or Invulnerable type skills/buffs should be no longer than 5 seconds duration after being triggered/used unless they are blocking a particular type of damage such as missile, melee or magic, then they should have a hit count limit. Reason: it’s extremely unfair and not fun to fight someone who stacked a lot of hp who literally goes from being very tanky to being invincible, to being tanky then back to invincible then reviving, then cycling all that over again. Mainly Clerics are the ones who do this with skills like Revive, Statue of Goddess Ausrine, Safety Zone, etc…
  5. Skills like Hanging Shot and Levitation should ultimately have a hit count. Perhaps skills designed to bring the “flying” characters down will apply a debuff and decrease the hitcount by half or so then apply the fall damage. This is partly linked to #4.
  6. Would be cool if you can purchase or receive PvP specific “Normalized Gear” at the start. You should be able to earn points from PvP events/instances. There should be a PvP Shop in game where you can use these points to buy different gear that’s only allowed in PvP, cosmetic accessories, weapon skins, costumes, pets, titles, attribute points, resets, etc. Perhaps this gear should be weightless and a separate UI be designed to equip this gear, just an idea. (Lol disclaimer for anyone who gets triggered easy.) The gear should be able to be enhanced with monster gems and PvP gems. Maybe add new gems to the game specifically for the PvP Shop. An example would be… A gem with “Damage to players +1%” or another with “Damage received from players -1%”. The gems shouldn’t have high stats added to them. You would then have to buy a “PvP Gem Socket” item from the PvP shop and this would be the only way you upgrade your PvP gear. Maybe after like 15 TBL matches you’ll be able to have enough points to get 1 socket. Just an idea to add some incentive to PvPing.
  7. Fix the lag…
  8. Some CC skills need their ranges reduced to more “reasonable” areas of effect. An example would be Iron Hook when it has the attribute on, another is Pull Rete. Most players would probably agree that some skills have far too great ranges. They should match the area of the target skill range area shown when you are about to cast the skill and also match the animation of the skill. There shouldn’t be guess work involved in skill ranges.

The list goes on and on and on, as some of you also have great/sound ideas, but only because of the state of the current PvP being particularly bad. I could go into extreme detail about each class and each skill but only if @STAFF_Yuri you guys want me too :stuck_out_tongue: