Tree of Savior Forum

We're not sheep... [1:1 Trade rant]

General Discussion
#1

Edit: They’re planning on reworking it:

…We’re your customers and players. We’re here to enjoy the service you’re providing and buy from your Cash Shop to improve our game experience and to show our support. We’re not here because we have to be, but because we want to be. So why did yesterdays announcement addressing the 1:1 Trade restrictions look like you’re trying to explain to a bunch of kids how pollution helps the environment?


Most of these are aimed at your limitations on the Market/Auction system, which I (mostly) agree with. That’s fine.

What’s NOT fine, is the part that was aimed at 1:1 Trade:

Having players make a minimum investment by buying a Token is not to combat bots; it’s an attempt to increase the average number of paying players. The problem is that THIS ISN’T THE WAY TO DO IT. You don’t just completely lock basic features that have been in the MMORPG genre for over a decade behind a paywall, and say “This is a good thing”. But that’s not even the main issue here.

The main issue is that you’ve already added restrictions to the Token Trading itself via 30 trades a month + Items Only.

So if there’s no silver trading then how are you justifying the restriction in the first place? Why would you even need to regulate gold sellers who buy Tokens, if you yourselves say that their end-goal is selling Silver, which you’ve already disabled?

I’ll state it right now; I’ll still be supporting the game. I’ll still buy a Costume if I like it, I’ll still buy a Skill reset and other convenience items if I need it, and I’ll still buy a Token if I’m low on Silver and can’t buy it from the Market. What I WON’T do though, is try to defend paywalling Trade like I’ve defended almost every other issue we’ve had to deal with since the game launched (First week server lag/queue’s = “Happens to most MMO’s” | Bugs from CBT = “They worked hard for a small company, of course they’d miss a few things”).

So I’m doing two things:

  1. Not accepting your Trade/Token decision.
  2. Still staying, playing, and supporting your game.

Now look at your forums and Steam reviews and see if those people are gonna be doing #2 if things don’t change.

36 Likes
#2

Hail Six guide us to the next plane of existence were trade is enabled.

#3

Yeah it’s sad to have such a nice game losing almost half [Potentially more] than it’s player base Because of limitations.

well, their due date to fix everything is before the actual launch.

4 Likes
#4

“IT’S NOT A PAYWALL, YOU CAN BUY TOKENS WITH SILVER IN THE MARKET1!1!!”

  • Someone who apparently thinks Tokens appear out of thin air and no one had to pay for them before putting them in the market
1 Like
#5

Here you go, the solution to the Trading problems.

#6

Does nobody realize the botters are just buying the Tokens with silver off the market to reduce their own trade restrictions?
Bots have 2 things, Time and Silver.

7 Likes
#7

Three things. You forgot stolen credit card info which they use to purchase subscritpions and whatnot.

(Though that would be BOTTERS, not bots.)

#8

Every time I see these posts I just think you’re a desperate RMTer who either really wants to sell silver or buy it.

#9

So? I don’t understand your point TBH. It is actually better this way than if they just sell tokens for silver out of thin air.

People who don’t want to pay can get it with silver. What difference does it make if someone else bought it with money?

Technically that aspect in itself deters the botters/silver sellers because the money goes towards the developers and it makes it more difficult for the bot silver to be sold.

#10

Tokens in the end are gonna be what controls the economy sadly…
The way they are handling it will backfire on them in the future.

2 Likes
#11

Um… Maybe, just maybe, and try real hard to follow me on that one, if someone else bought it with money, IMC already got someone’s money, so it’s still a paywall - only it came out of someone ELSE’s pocket. Shocking, right? :fearful:

Try to follow this one too: Botters can BUY THEIR OWN TOKENS WITH STOLEN CREDIT CARD INFO OR SILVER FARMED FOR A TOKEN THAT SOMEONE’S ALREADY PAID FOR. So that token system is annoying no one except honest players.

#13

Calm down now. I already know those things, but i still disagree.

You seem like one of those people who are impossible to talk to so I’ll just let you keep thinking what you want.

#14

Thats a childish assumption imo, but it could still happen, but some people have a point that trading doesn’t even allow silvers so it doesn’t affect much

#15

Well, many players (including me) have posted suggestions and ideas that benefit honest players and condemn botters. However, no reply from IMC

Like you, I will still play the game (well 60 days token anyway) but if the player base dwindle, I will just leave.

1:1 trading does’t allow you to trade silver, so lock that behind a paywall doesn’t do anything, just annoys players to no end.

Instead of creating a system that benefit players and harm botters, IMC just want a system that is convenient to them. Once you put your customers below your staff satisfaction, things gonna go down hill real quick.

4 Likes
#16

I am unsure how you reached that conclusion. However I will lay out the rationale of IMC selling token.

RMT is unavoidable because certain players want to get ahead. When there is no official in-game way to get ahead with $$$, they turn towards RMTers. RMTers hurt IMC’s business because these are $$$ that IMC can be making but is being diverted to 3rd parties.

Therefore a legit method to RMT (as offered by IMC) must be provided in game. Thus the Tokens. The primary purpose of the Token is not to make arbitrary restrictions to make players pay, but to allow a non-destructive way for players to legit RMT through IMC games.

Now you can argue that the making trading a privilege of Token user is a poor design, but there is some rationale behind it. Allowing 1:1 trading indiscriminately means that RMTers can deliver goods easily. The restriction now forces them to go though a regulated AH where there’s a higher level of surveillance / restrictions. Going through AH also imposes tax on the transfer if they player does not have token (30%), and if the RMT buyer has token, the transaction was already taxed by IMC. Also, if the price is right it is likely that said buyer will become a Token seller instead of a RMT buyer (with its associated risk).

Legit players are also much less reluctant to obtain a Token than an RMTer. To the player, it is supporting the dev for some added convenience / accelerated progress. To the RMTer, it is an added cost to their operation (no matter silver / $$$ / time cost). Therefore to IMC, while the restriction on 1:1 trading detracts from the overall game experience, it should not have too large an impact, as legit players are expected to have lower barriers to obtaining it (i.e. lower than RMTer).

So when IMC says that the Token system was intended as a Bot / RMT solution, it is highly unlikely that this is just a scheme to:

Will the token system be successful in what it was designed to do? Your guess is as good as mine. Only time will tell.

2 Likes
#17

To a certain extend I can understand your point of view but you should definitely reconsider some of the restrictions especially when it comes to the team stash. The team stash should be a bit bigger from the beginning onwards already (e.g. 3-5 slots). It should not cost trading charges nor potential to exchange items among the characters of an account. Furthermore it should be possible to exchange silver without a fee among your characters via the team stash. Even non token users should be able to use the team stash and the player trade to a certain extend. Moreover it should be possible to register more items in the auction e.g. 5 for non token users and 10 for token users. It would also be nice to reduce the auction fee in general especially for non token users.

#18

My previous point of view is on the topic of Token and 1:1 trade only. For team stash, the only reason to put a restriction on frequent team trading is to maintain demand for items. So instead of using 1 set of items across your characters, you will need 4 (potentially). Otherwise I am not against an unrestricted team trading. As for Team silver, I hold the opinion that it should simply be shared, as there is no bot deterring effects or any ill effects to the economy that I can think of.

The only reason I would be against that is that IMC need to maintain some differentiation between F2P and Token users so that the Token will be desired by the general player base. If the Token doesn’t have enough benefit and most players prefer F2P, then the model would have failed already.

As it stand right now, registering less items have little impact to fighting RMT. Since the RMTers trade by buying overpriced items, not listing items for sale. I do not see the problem for implementing this. However my point above about sufficient differentiation applies to this as well.

The tax is probably beneficial to pressure RMT transactions through an additional 20% tax or get a Token (get taxed anyway). Also sufficient differentiation between F2P and Token users need to be maintained to give it value.

#19

what sense does it make to go around accusing people of RMTing? At the end it hurts the whales, the players who would fork over large amounts of cash to get ahead in-game. The more rampant bots and RMTing is, the more inflation and potentially the shorter your dollar gets you. Either way Real Money Trade exists in the game through the sales of tokens. The ONLY difference is who gets the money.

The community needs to understand we’re in the same boat. Without these people willing to pay money to SOMEONE, the game will die. Yes, preferably not an illicit service like a Goldseller and instead it should got to IMC. That’s for them to figure out. At the end us as players are having to all deal with massive restrictions that tear apart the community. Whether it’s the lost feeling of a true MMO or these consistent debates themselves, the result is the same. You’re going to bleed potential money

#20

Or they can just sell silver in the TP shop, why didn’t they do that?

1:1 trading is NOT silver trading, we want to throw items to our friends too

I’m pretty sure potential decrease would prevent that already.

While I respect your idea, I can’t say they are right.

#21

I reached it from their decision to keep things the way they are, even after they acknowledged that many players are dissatisfied with it, yet not providing a valid reason as to why they’re not changing it.

So now we’ve both reached the same conclusion; the main purpose of the Token is to sell it to the players (As with all products). The problem here is that their attempt to increase its value via adding Trading to it as a benefit is doing more harm than good.

And these goods are not Silver, so they will continue to focus on the Market over 1:1 Trading. These RMT groups are mainly a problem because of this (Also quoted from the Announcement):

These ‘goods’ they’ll be able to trade are items only, which thanks to IMC lowering the NPC Shop price of items when selling them there and the Trade-per-month limit, is also not a reliable method to transfer Silver.

The restriction does not ‘force’ them though, as they are willingly using the Market over the Trade system because they cannot transfer Silver via Trade. You could argue that they’ll be selling rare items, but this is not a matter of concern as they have to hunt these items manually and they’re not causing Inflation to the economy like they do with Silver. They could alternatively buy the items from the Auction House from other players and then sell them for real money through their website and 1:1 Trade, but by doing this, two things just happened:

  1. Market Tax was applied and that amount of money was removed from the game and was not an RMT transaction.
  2. The item has now lost (at least) 2 Potential before reaching its buyer.

With all due respect Cooky, I don’t believe that you believe what you just typed. The part before the underlined-text is correct. The underlined text itself is silly.

For one, it IS having a large impact; you see all the upset it’s causing. I’M even complaining about it, and from looking at my post history you’d see that I practically never complain about anything at all. Preventing RMT is nice and all, but not when the negative impact of the restrictions greatly outweigh the benefit of them not existing in the first place. It gets even worse when neither the staff nor players are able to properly defend the reasoning on the restriction, and there’s already a system in place for the RMTers that’s a better alternative than the restricted feature.

And RMTers don’t have a lower barrier to obtaining it since they can just buy it from the Market because:

My guess is based on prior and current evidence of customer dissatisfaction across multiple platforms (This forum / Steam reviews / Facebook) prior to the game even going F2P. I’m a little disheartened that you actually tried to defend this, actually…

Firemen don’t stand in-front of a burning house and wait until it’s mostly destroyed before they put it out. I’d like this game to be thriving and intact for as long as possible, and this issue isn’t making that any easier.

1 Like