Grinding is not necessarily a bad thing in a game, as long as the grind and the game is fun. There should always be new areas and new monsters to kill. I don’t really want to be grinding in the same area and the same monsters for 5-10 levels, etc. Of course, this is mostly subjective since everyone has a different tolerance level for grinding (in terms of it being too fast or too slow).
A game with this kind of level cap makes me hope there is a lot of exploration and variety, but given that some people have KR CBT access here and have mentioned that it feels a bit linear is a little worrisome. ToS is not one of those “game begins when you hit level cap” MMOs, so after a certain point, you can consider it to be end game, even if you haven’t hit the level cap yet.
That’s exactly my point then. Neither of those sides is worth anything without bringing up concrete arguments for as to why this game specifically needs more/less grind from here on out.
I am not against grinding as a principle.
I myself played all of these grinding games I posted and I played many more of the same kind, so you could put me into the grind lover category as well. I was specifically referring to the people who argue for more grind in ToS, because I think anyone who is used to grinding a lot, who has seen the exp chart and who tested the game will understand that the grind in the game will be too much when you consider the level cap and the fact that this is only the beginning of the game. How far do you think it will go after a level cap increase? Maybe to 800? And to 1000 after that?
Here, I’ll bring up my reasons as to why I felt the game could still use grind:
I gained roughly 10 levels per day in the game which I felt was a bit too fast if it kept up like that even at later levels. 2-4 levels per day sounds still okay to me, since in a normal grindfest you don’t even necessarily gain 1 level per day at a high level. But the levelcap here is much higher than in those other games.
That’s why I think less exp could be a good idea, but then there are even more reasons as to why the exp is too low. For example the class system the game advertises with. There are so many interesting classes to play and when you need endlessly long to grind up 1 character alone, then you are not gonna get to make use of what the game wanted to offer. You are just gonna have to randomly pick a class that you feel is to your liking. You can’t test any class either, so it’s really just a blind pick.
And I think I speak for the majority of RO players when I say that there were things in RO that have no place in this game. Like having to grind up a class forever just to see if it’s to your liking. I enjoyed the immense atmosphere in RO created through missing convenience features like a global chat, auto-matching, warping without big costs or that you had to figure out most of the game by yourself. But ToS is not trying to be that kind of game and imo they manage to create a wonderful atmosphere without having to strip the players of convenience features. And the same for the grind.
The word grind has a negative connotation to it even though you can consider most gameplay a grind. As long as the grind is fun, nobody considers it as such. That’s why when people start to refer to something as a grind, it should raise a red alarm flag in your mind. People don’t even use the word grind for something they consider fun gameplay as that word wouldn’t even cross their minds in that scenario.
I, therefore, lean more towards increasing the exp slightly.
But I hardly think the exp rate will be a big factor for how much entertainment I’ll get out of this game so I don’t mind either way.
You have a sound reasoning as to why you feel the way you do about the exp rate and the game, even if that opinion is not having an opinion about it.
A whole different story from someone who doesn’t explain himself and just throws around with defamations.
I think people need to take in consideration how many people will play the game and how everyone feels about the grind, Just because 3-4 people like the grind isn’t a reason to keep it. I don’t care either way personally, i’ll play regardless but if they’re trying to bring in many people, i don’t think it’s a good idea to keep the rates how they are…at the same time they don’t need a drastic increase. Take in consideration the longevity of the game. People from many different backgrounds will be playing. Exp factor is a big thing for most people, not everyone can stand to sit through an extensive grind session. i would take into consideration what the max level will be and where the average player will drop off. They’re trying to make a game that people will play for a while… There have been games that looked good but ended up being a super grind and tons stopped playing… you may call them fickle, weak possibly, but ultimately they’re a part of the demographic as well. take it all into consideration.
@mannaise422 There is a poll on the forums currently people that think the xp is 2 low is a minority of about 38%. So dont say 3-4 people like the xp as is. As the stats stand were the majority.
I think that rather than making team on quests vs grinding, we should just realise that we will have best of both worlds, there will be quests and you will also have the option of grinding. Screw it, I’ll be doing both with my guild personally.
Sounds like most of the people aren’t voting. me saying 3-4 wasn’t in literal terms, and by no means are you the majority. That and looking at the poll it’s no exp vs exp increase… looking at it that way option 2 (A Higher exp rate, but still requiring grind.) is at 28%, option 3 (scaling exp like in KR which scales based on your level) is at 39%, and option 4 (make the rate higher up till players can achieve rank 3) is at 12%… where are you getting your numbers from? looks like 21% against 79% with some sort of exp increase in favor o.o…
Good thing we weren’t talking about empirical data. You mentioned the poll, so i gave you the poll statistics. 21% against 79% speaks for it’s self. i can guarantee this game won’t be nearly as popular if it stays the same. It won’t stop me, but i’m one out of the tons of people who want to play this game. And this is coming from experience as well, i didn’t reach 100 but i did hit 89 during the closed beta.
Alright… i don’t understand the premise of that statement. But i trust in the end, this game will ultimately be an mmo, it’s pretty much a “Pick your flavor” thing nowdays. I hope they soak up everything and come to some sort of conclusion, either way i’ll have fun with the game. I just hope the majority can as well. Creating a niche mmo is like trying to find unique pictures on deviantart. Just pick what you like and stop arguing why you think it’s a pioneer piece of art.
@mannaise422 Fair enough. I’m just saying this game shouldn’t try to hard to cater to people as its not gonna be a huge game like WoW (i hate WoW but its a example everyone understands) which is so watered down everyone can play it. This game being niche should just develop a cult following that’s fiercely loyal. For example demon souls is a niche game and its now at its 4th game Blood Born strictly because their cult following supports them as long as they don’t ruin it trying to bring in the masses that want everything handed to them. Long story short the game does not have to cater to whining to be successful. Which since you said you would play either way the xp goes your probably part of that cult following i’m talking about and understand what i am getting at.
Your getting a reply because saying the soul’s series is niche in anyway is hilarious. But onto the main reason for this post any game is going to end up catering to its largest player base because that’s how a game gets its funding. Sure you could make a niche game and have maybe what 6000 people playing it but if its a F2P like Tree of Savior only maybe 500 people would get premium or spend money on a daily basis. That can’t support the company with its hosting fees and salaries for its employees. In the end if as the poll you mentioned earlier 21% of players want the exp to stay the same but 79% want it to be higher its going to end up being higher. At the same time if the game gets to inclusive where only veterans really play it they lose a ton of income since new players won’t want to stay. Basically all i’m saying is at the moment i’m in the raise the exp for the game and comparing this to a “niche” game that had a teaser at E3 is a weird thing to do.
@ryunden " 21% of players want the exp to stay the same but 79%" Wrong the poll i mentioned says 40% want it higher and 60% said leave it alone. And yes souls is a niche game that’s how it started just more and more people have checked it out because of its dedicated followers. Clearly you were not a player during the demon souls period.
The game was made a reason the way it is. This is a KMMORPG it is going to have grind. If you want a game without grind I suggest you play CoD.
I do not agree with your opinion just as you do not agree with mine. We have different experiences with gaming so our opinions are not going to be the same. I still disagree with you. If those gamers do not want a grind fest they should not be playing a kmmorpg that is one of the big elements of a kmmorpg. If you break the roots of a games background it will become generic, this game is different not because it does not grind but because the combat is very different. Why not just change the whole game while you are at it and make it so there is no open world to avoid lag? Because lag will discourage new players from playing because they can not handle lag. I myself like to grind because it makes the game more rewarding. If you get rid of the reward factor it will not keep people playing. I suggest you stop taking the game so personal and go enjoy this game when it comes out instead of looking for things to complain about. I honestly hope that IMC will not take players like you serious because you only make up a little tiny amount compared to the masses waiting to play. I hope they do not make this game for casuals.
Decided to finally give this a read since it was a huge block of text.
I’ve played both the iCBT and kCBT (very extensively), so based on both I’ll offer a couple things:
[quote=“vitadrink469, post:1, topic:35642”]
Put at least 1-2 optimal grind spots for every map or at least more than 1 per level bracket. I don’t know if this will affect the servers because more data is needed per extra mobs but something needs to be done. At level 90, my party and I had a lot of trouble getting to level 100. We couldn’t find a place to get efficient exp to level at a decent pace. If we were to grind at the location we were in, it would take us approximately 1-2 hours to level once. We searched for hours for a location to grind… but couldn’t find a single optimal grind spot that had a good density of mobs for 5 man parties. Every map level 85+ consisted of 3-5 mobs per screen-after killing all the mobs per “Field room” you’d be left with pretty much 0 spawn. You would have to travel a good 20 seconds to reach the next set of spawns. We need the density and spawn rate at every map to be something like Tenet Garden north of the goddess. If you have never been there… Then I guess Miner’s Village east side before the bridge, it has a lot of vegetables…? Onions? Bulbs? =][/quote]
The spawn rate seems to be also affected by the amount of players in an area killing the same mobs. Being ahead or only with a few players in a map, means less mobs, means less grinding. There are usually 3ish maps to level on at each bracket, however certain classes excel in certain areas compared to others. Being in a party, and probably leveling in the same area, you were unable to experience this.
[quote=“vitadrink469, post:1, topic:35642”]
2. More channels. I don’t know how frustrating it was for the people that was stuck leveling with the majority of the population, but one can imagine it was filled with people. Optimal grind spots had at least 4 parties KSing/Fighting for mobs, even blues. Your exp rate is greatly reduced because of that and frustration of being KS’d will cause people to stop playing. Allow Dynamic channel system. A lot of population = more channels. Low population = Low channel (At the very least 2)[/quote]
Actually the channels do seem to be dynamic, though in iCBT they seemed to be a little weird, maybe they turned off that feature or edited it? I also think there was too few people at high level maps for the dynamic channel system to kick in, in low level maps it also seemed a little buggy, or didn’t work. I also think certain maps have a hard cap on how many dynamic channels it creates.
[quote=“vitadrink469, post:1, topic:35642”]
3. Field Bosses should give exp equivalent to a rare blue mob. It is kind of sad to kill a field boss to see that your exp bars did not move a pixel. You spent a good 5-10 minutes killing that epic field boss with your friends/party and all you get is loot and exp that you can get in 10 seconds. Loot is great and all but exp is just as important. (Btw I am talking about Field bosses in dungeons or those that spawn on their own, not by the party mission F6)[/quote]
Field bosses give some of the rarest loot you can get, the current end-game is farming them for the best and most expensive recipes/mats so I think its very worthwhile, doesn’t really need an EXP boost attached to it. In kCBT, since there are many more players playing, you’d be lucky to fight a field boss for 3 minutes. You probably experienced the 5-10 min kill time because of:
Low amount of players
Underleveled
There is a lot of things that need to be changed with blue mobs, however if your constantly killing in an area, the spawn seems fine. I spent a couple hours in an area with a 5 man party, and we used call of deities scrolls to essentially control the maps spawns for ourselves on a cycle and tested it out. Blue mobs spawn at a fair rate, and the anti-bot grim reaper usually spawns faster. I think there are too many other issues with exp rates and blue mobs, and increasing the spawn for blue mobs just doesn’t do it, in fact I believe it’d cause more issues.
I think that grinds are ok. They are enjoyable to some degree and you get to bond more with your characters thus becoming more meaningful the leveling process. Nonetheless, grinds are easily a double edged sword, they can be as good as they are bad for a game, you don’t want a game that’s too easy mostly because it takes away any meaningful progress more when you use leveling as part of your experience but at the same time if the game is too grindy most people will just quit the game leaving with an unhealthy game with a small population.
The problem with grinds in a game like this is what the game pretty much advertises, people need to consider that the grind should not only be defined by the amount of time 1 character takes to max level but aswell how likely people are willing to create multiple characters. In a game like this where you have so much potential for build diversity, a game with so many classes chances are that most people would love to at least try a few characters, most people would love to see differents builds and paths and see how the characters evolve and do once they are at max level. If the grind is too big rarely people will be willing to level more than 1 character, decreasing the replay value of the game, you want people to play alts, it allows new players to have others to play with, gives veterans more activities to work for, theorycrafters have a better time in the game by trying to build different characters and developers have an easier time if they were to nerf a class or job.
Imagine what would happen if you were to level one character to max level because it is the one you like the most just to see it nerf because it is “too good”, would you be willing to play a character that no longer is what you were used to? Would you be willing to level up a new character to max level? What happens if you already have leveled 2 characters, how likely would it be for you to level a third character? a fourth? How likely would it be for people to try more than just 1 character?
Grinds also come in many forms, leveling is one of the many grinds usually MMORPGs have, gear grinding, gold grinding, reputation grinding (Or been that “guy” from that server), Guild reputation, etc. There are many things that you can do just with one character, if you make just the leveling part 90% of the experience the game has to offer I am 100% that most casuals will quit the game once they realized how much of a grind the game it is going to be.
If we were talking that it takes around 2 months of playing at least 4-6 hours a day that would mean that in 1 year more dedicated players could have at least 4-6 characters but the question would be, is that much? How many jobs just one class has? How many builds you can try just with one class? At the end of the day if we were to say that just creating a character is part of the end game content then wouldn’t that be as good as the exp grind?
I am saying this because some people here are saying “Nah, come on, too easy. I almost didn’t play as much as I wanted and got to level 40”. How much is actually level 40? (As an example) how much of a difference is going from level 40 to 41 than going from level 521 to 522? If we are going to say “Grinds is okay, but I just play like not even 10% of what my character can manage to be in game” then I would say that we don’t know if the grind is actually in a healthy state.
I am ok with grinds as I stated above, but the problem is how much of a grind? and what are we willing to sacrifice to make the game more grindy? Are we willing to only have one character? How many characters and classes and paths you want to try? How many players would you consider are more than enough for you to play with? 1000? 10000? 100000? 1000000? There are way more things to consider than just “Hey, I got to level 60 and I didn’t play as much as I wanted”.
Not very good with the quoting for this forum, so i’ll just answer based off the paragraphs.
I fully understand the concept and the mechanic of spawns in this game, also i’ve solo grinded so i know certain classes excel in certain maps. I’m not THAT dull when i play the game lol. You’re giving us your kCBT feedback. “3ish maps to level on each bracket”. That right there is clearly a kCBT feedback. Have you played the game past level 55 for iCBT? There isn’t 3 maps per bracket that gives good exp and has amazing spawn rate for 5 man parties. Heck, i’d like you to show me where because i’ve been to every nook and cranny of the map.
P.S. I’m talking about 5 man grind parties. The game should at no point in time wall off 5 man grind parties. That’s like bringing your friends to an amusement park and when you get there, they want you to play/ride independently at all times when you are in the park.
Channels i think we’re both saying the same thing so i’ll skip that.
Field bosses should give exp boost… just because the boss gives good loot doesn’t mean he can’t also give good exp right? It’s precisely because kCBT has reached the “end-game” that is why you guys are farming it. Had there not been a level cap you guys would still be leveling and bosses would still take 5-10 minute to kill. Its a matter of time before the lower level bosses take 5-10 minute to kill. The majority of the population wont be there anymore, just like every other mmorpg, lower level areas become dead empty after some time. If you’re worried about end-game bosses giving exp boost, you wont have to because you wont get anymore exp when you hit cap. Exp doesn’t matter when you reach cap! …Or does it? I’ve also clearly stated dungeon bosses. Dungeon bosses has hourly respawn timers. You honestly think something that respawns hourly and doesn’t move a pixel of your exp bar when killed is good? >.>
But anyways, you gave us your kCBT feedback and you didn’t think of the whole aspect of the game, is all i’m saying. =/
Meh that rare mob spawn rate thingy, i don’t care much about it since i personally feel its fine the way it is. Just added it because if we don’t get any changes for future iCBT then MAYBE we can get higher blue mob respawn rate? >.>
*** This forum is so freaken weird! That rare mob discussion is labeled “4” but the forum registers it as “1”… Amazing, i dislike this forum’s coding(?) even more! ***
from what i have seen in videos / when i could test the game is that people only lv fast when they are farming blue mobs, normal mobs gives really crappy exp
In a way you are correct, but also incorrect. Blues give a sudden “Burst” of exp depending on RnG of spawn. (Not sure if spawn rate is manipulable) Normal mobs gives a “Consistent” exp.
In order for it to be a good farming spot, both factors need to be in play. Area has blue spawn locations and a good density of normal mobs to grind.
I can guarantee you, you level slower by just finding/killing blues. You level extremely fast if its blues and good grind spot xD.
So yeah, people don’t level fast from only farming blues.
First I’ll clarify a few things, I’m not giving kCBT feedback, rather pointing out what’s wrong, using kCBT and iCBT info to explain it, and IMC’s reasoning behind how leveling should be done.
Keep in mind, kCBT and iCBT were only different in exp through a ratio, and scaling. Leveling in a place in kCBT is still the same and worthwhile in iCBT, comparatively, even though it’s abysmally slower in iCBT.
IMC wants each level bracket to have 3 places to level in, that is the games intention, see here from a FGT (focused group test) interview:
같은 레벨대에 3군대정도 추가되는등 사냥터루트가 대폭 변경예정 원래는 힘든구간은 파티등으로 해서 극복하는 걸 원했지만 현실은 그냥 솔플
Translation by @emailboxu:
We want to have about 3 areas for every level range where you can hunt effectively, so many hunting routes will be greatly changed. Originally we were going to have players rely on parties to get through level intervals that lacked solo zones, but now we want solo play to be relevant throughout the game.
Source:
With that in mind, there is also the general linear progression from 1 - 50ish, a little after Gesti should be fought, before any real grind splitting maps appear.
Now my main point is to counter this, and I believe the rates are not correct, and that is the reasoning behind why you could not find 3ish maps to level at in each bracket, as that was the games intention, and you did not meet the games intention, because of the rates:
Now for grinding spots past 55, which you had trouble finding, once again due to abysmal exp rates. Most likely you were looking for the place with the best spawns + exp/time. Being at the 55+ bracket in iCBT was fairly high, most players did not make it that far, and thus the places you went to had lower spawns because there was a much lower amount of players in each map than the game intended. So your best spawns + exp/time did not work very well because there was no/few best spawn locations. With that said, here is where the game wanted you to level:
Even with high spawns, the above areas are pretty bad, however there are many supplementary blue quests around this range.
60/65+:
Akmens Ridge (where most players should be), there is high spawn in a central area when many players are on the map, and you can run around a small area in a circle getting constant exp.
Rukas Plateau + Titas valley are your other choices, they are somewhat more difficult, but better in small parties.
75/80+:
Royal Mausoleum 1F: Great for pyros/aoe classes.
Royal Mausoleum 2F: Great for clerics, mild aoe classes, ranged classes, melee classes.
Royal Mausoleum 3F: Great for melee classes.
Zachariel Crossroads: Good for classes with lightning damage, the big mobs in this area comparatively give more exp than other mobs, and are weak to Zaibas.
That should give you a general idea of the games intention, and how it should of played out. But it most likely did not play out for you this way because:
EXP rates broke their idea of level bracket ranges.
Everyone wants to search for blue mobs.
Most of the time you are probably under leveled when looking for a decent place to get exp.
What I do agree with is kCBT rates being too high, but this was on purpose, as you could skip entire areas.
I can agree with this now as they became randomized completely.
Not true, if the exp rates were not so low, you would not be underleveled when leveling in certain areas, and the population will be more dense in OBT. But I guess some more exp would be satisfying? I only recently farmed bosses in kCBT, but on the journey from 1-200, I did not farm them, and fighting them was very short and quick, because everyone was of level range, and sometimes was great because the loot was just too good.
In kCBT, grind areas are perfectly fine (a little too good), so no one cared much for field boss exp, it was more so for loot. The reason you feel that field bosses should give more exp is because:
Overall exp from everything was low.
Low mob spawn, due to low amount of players in higher level maps.
Time spent to fight the boss was too long compared to exp received, because of being underleveled/etc.
I’ve also clearly stated dungeon bosses. Dungeon bosses has hourly respawn timers. You honestly think something that respawns hourly and doesn’t move a pixel of your exp bar when killed is good? >.>