Tree of Savior Forum

Time to nerf quickcast and Magic arrow

General Discussion
#545

Compare to either: So much dex/crit investment that there’s very
little STR left to get 100% crit rate (for ‘equal’ amount of 100% up
time 50% more damage)

Or spend MILLIONS in total to get all their skills to 50% enhance attribute.

hint: equip and pt member

Also, armor types? You mean something like how ET boss have GHOST
armor type, meaning it takes 75% from most Swordsman skills and 50% MORE
from all magic attack? YEAH THOSE SWORDSMAN SURE HAVE IT EASY /sarcasm.

so your earth tower is only 5-storey tall? interesting… where is it? do we even play the same game? LOL
FYI, in my version of 20-storey earth tower, a party of 2 elememe has almost 0 chance to clear it. there’e s reason why the succeding party consist of an elememe and a SR, which of course you will never see if your tower is only 5-storey tall LOL.

Lol, not much sacrifice? Let me see, how about pouring all your stats
into DEX for that not much sacrifice, and even then you can only crit
60% of the time?

again, I will preach this again
hint: equip and pt member

also if you want to sacrifice your rank, there are several job that can help you achieve that. but the question is… will you willing to sacrifice that precious rank selection for that?

Anyways he is right about swordsmen lacking multihit skills.

the nearest thing to that is 0 cd skills. but honestly, if you see the number listed in skill and you multiply it with the hit count, you will see how some skill have number flying above everything else.

It goes beyond what people complain about.
Lets talk about “sacrifice”.

I’ll just snips everything else

you have misunderstanding. see, for wizard to be able to do 50% extra damage, they need to go to C3.
now, the other 2 and half (because half of cleric is still magic based), you can access that extra 50% damage just by being C1. you don’t need to do anything and you already have that innate critical rate and critical atk. all out of thin air. now the problom is how to maintain high crit rate as you level up. the easiest will be equip, next you can try adding some rank like archer2 or hoplite (and see, unlike wiz3, you still do that extra damage anyway even without this rank), and lastly you can find a party that can fill the hole left. you can see how many party buff that revolve specifically around crit atk-crit rate-crit res while only one buff revolve around matk.

This discussion has nothing to do with nerfing Wiz C3 out of relevancy
so you can avoid trying to make that argument. Only the reality that
Quick casts attribute creates an unhealthy disparity between damage
dealing classes within the Wizard class.

Totally agree. within wiz rank it is very unhealty. but this and “OMG my class don’t have permanent 50% damage up… wiz so OP… nerf pl0x” is totally different. And I see most people here are the latter.

#546

So basically you agree that going wiz 3 cost you nothing, but you still argue that going wiz 3 is a sacrifice

Oh yeah, because equip and party member does not increase wizard attack at all, oh wait …

#547

So, either you’re unable to read and understand basic english or you’re just trolling by now. Probably the latter. Guess i won’t waste any more time.

#548

Which Wiz3 didn’t need for that +50%, so your point is? Oh right, EXCUSES.
(pssht, you know Wiz3 can ALSO get equip and have pt members)

Nor would they succeed without the Meltsis + Ausrine, btw that SR was a mixed Str/Dex hybrid, not pure Str and have his party members ‘help’ him actually crit.

‘chance’ for extra damage, which once again you’re somehow equating to the 100% uptime 50% extra damage on Wiz 3 through some twisted train of thought.

'party buff that revolve specifically around crit atk-crit rate-crit res’
Monstrance - (30% dex +10, meaning without having high Dex already it’s worthless)
Zalciai - +crit attack and -crit res on mob (it also give via attribute m.amp but I guess in your brain it doesn’t matter, you’re probably gonna go “oh it’s so little anyway”)

2…wao, so MANY.

Btw, full SPR Krivis using Zalciai reduce the mob’s crit res by about 340, or 50% crit chance, or about 25% damage increase which…

I’ll assume you mean Swell Brain, which got buffed on kToS to gives 22.5% m.atk boost on top of its 145 INT.

So you agree that it isn’t healthy, but somehow you’re defending it…ok…?

#549

You are saying that IF pyro is useful going wiz 3 can be considered a sacrifice, which pyro is not now.

And when (the big IF) pyro is useful, what stopping people from going wiz 3 pyro 3?

By all means, please, explain how I can interpret your text better than that.

Jeesus people

#550

Just go play Fencer. Fencer stronk. Fencer viable. Fencer destroy things.

inb4 excuses about durability, difficult combos, C3 not out blah blah.

#551

Did you miss this part?

That bonus damage wouldn’t stack with quick cast’s attribute, that’s why it wouldn’t end up being convenient taking both. I’m quite sure they could even make it so that two particular attributes cannot be active at the same time, if they wanted to do so, but i don’t think it would be necessary.
You could still go pyro 3, of course. But why should you do so? As those bonuses wouldn’t stack together, and given that pyro only gets fire skills, you would end up using only the pyro’s bonus damage effect instead for all the skills you gained in those ranks.
The efficacy of those skills would be the same as going pyro directly from the second rank, essentially, but you used up ranks 4-6 in doing so instead.
For a wizard it would be more convenient to go elementalist in those ranks, given that you do get to use quick cast’s attribute there, and follow it with warlock.
Likewise, one that has gone pyro directly and maxed it may still choose to get elementalist at ranks 5-7, and its attribute would work with the fire spells an ele gets (granted, there are two, and it may be useful if they changed them a bit, like making prominence more reliable) but it wouldn’t be as strong as a non-specialized wizard on the other skills. Still, it would widen it’s repertoire of elements a bit, for when those ones are needed. And it would also buff its fire skills by getting “Fire property: Explosion”. You would then be ready to get some rank 8 class doing so, assuming they do get fire spells in their repertoire.

#552

So the only chance for a wizard that won’t go wiz 3 pyro 3 is something not even remotely in the game yet, nor has any sign that might be implemented, or balanced against unreleased class, at all?

Fine fine, while waiting for your pyro godly attribute, can we nerf QC attribute first? Because, you know what? Even if that pyro attribute is added, it would only make the wiz - pyro 3 - XX build prominent, it doesn’t address any issue with QC boosting rank 8 (at least 1 of them won’t be fire based) by 50%

You cannot argue with your imagination as evidence.

#553

Yeah, it’s as hypotetical as your QC nerf that somehow wouldn’t make wizard 3 useless. We’re talking about changing things, of course they aren’t ingame yet. Else we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

It isn’t supposed to. It would just provide alternative routes for the early ranks. Go wizard 3 for the generalist dps mage, get pyro for the specialized fire dps one.
And we’re talking about a mage that specializes in fire spells. Of course he needs fire spells to bring out its full potential.

Like you’ve been doing all along with the “QC is future-proofed” talk, you mean? You don’t know what future classes do either, though.
And i don’t have to use my imagination, anyway. We don’t know what future ranks shall have, but developers do. And they’re the one balancing the game, not me or you.

Oh, by the way, i’ll be waiting for your posts on how the buffed concentration is bad and should be nerfed. But i don’t think they’ll ever come, seeing as you don’t seem opposed to the new buff at all in the kToS thread. How surprising ~

#554

50% damage is always 50% damage, it’s future proof because you will get more damage classes in future (at least you can count necro c3 and warlock c2)

And of course I’m not opposing concentrate buff, you can calculate how much damage it give, and how “significant” it is

Assuming you have 500 STR (which is more than you will ever have, full STR is bad) concentrate will give you 126 (base + all attribute) + 56% * 500 = 406 damage

406, seriously? What a whooping amount, lol.

One thing you should know is that concentrate doesn’t work with additional attack as well

Comparing that to +50%? I don’t know man, it’s like comparing 406 to 40000

#555

For all you know, maybe there won’t be any more damage skills aside from the ones we already got, or they could be only fire spells that would have been more effective with the pyro bonus i mentioned. Of course it isn’t really plausible such a scenario, but can you say for certain that it won’t happen?
No, cause you aren’t one of the developers of this game.
And for all we know, they could as well say that quick cast attribute doesn’t work for skill over rank 8, once they implement those. So much for future-proofing.

It doesn’t work with additional attack lines, but it does work on multi-hit skills, whilst consuming still a single stack per skill (and given its low cooldown, you will likely be able to recast it before the effect is consumed). And some classes, like doppelsoldner, aren’t exactly lacking in multi-hit skills. Heh, it would make a fine addition for Highlander’s Moulinet, too. All skills with relatively low cooldowns (compared to wizards’ ones, at least), so those +400 add up quite a bit over time.
And given that it depends on str, beside from raising it yourself, you do get 10% per rank. So it sort-of scales with the character.
But of course, since it benefits you, it isn’t significant. Not that i expected anything else.

#556

Man now you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Is there any offensive class that get 0 attacking skills in an entire circle? Why do you think it would happen? If they don’t get offensive skills, what would they get? Hell even priest get 1 offensive skill.

And you know what, even if necro 3 or warlock 2 doesn’t get any offensive skill, they can already upgrade their current skills, which increase damage, and that damage increase is also further increased by 50% of QC. So yeah, future proofed

Right, my bad, let see, the highest amount of hit on swordman tree is cataphract rush, which is 30 hits. Add 400 to each hit, you get a whooping … 12000, over 10 seconds. Others:

  • Stabbing: 12 hit = 4800 damage
  • Moulinet? 5 hits = 2000 damage
  • Cyclone? How many hits it has? I’m not sure but I’m sure it’s less than rush.
  • Many swordman skills have 2-7 multi hits, which translate to an increase of 800-2800 damage, per skill.

Comparing to let say, hail, also 30 hits, but then get +50%, for let say just 2k each hit, that would be … hmm 30k.

Oh yeah, swordman number is really significant comparing to QC now. So significant that swordman needs at least 5-10 skills to be comparable to 1-2 wizard skills.

Also concentrate scale on number of hits, which mean upgrading skill level won’t make any difference to the bonus, while QC does

And mind you going swordman c3 meaning you have to forgo pelt (you know how bad it is to forgo pelt), while having exactly 1 usable MELEE attack skill (double slash) through the first 3 circles. Unlike wizard, swordman c3 don’t benefit you in PvE, at all and you really have to sacrifice a lot of builds if you want to go swordman c3. (hell, someone in here even say that “no one bother to go swordman c3” lol, I just don’t remember if it was you or not)

500 STR is already a lot, even for a rank 7 character. And guess what, QC 50% also scales with INT and rank. Hell, QC even scales better because concentrate only scale on STR, while QC scale with magic atk from equipment as well.

And that add 1 more thing to why I don’t oppose concentrate buff, you need to spend all 7 ranks to actually get that +400, QC you get 50% from rank 3 alright?

#557

Allow me to cut in and say that the big “balance patch” for ktos and come and go - there were no nerfs to either Magic Arrow or Quick Cast attribute, the only nerf to Frost Cloud seems to be a target limit of 15, which is only a nerf to ET.

Carry on with the arguments. :smiley:

#558

That frost cloud nerf is actually already on iTOS for a while already, so nothing change for us

1 Like
#559

KrToS people begin to complain about QC and MA already
IMC may nerf them soon

#560

You are comparing skills with numbers calculated over a single target with an AoE skill designed to hit randomly over an area. 30 hits on a single enemy? Good luck doing those. Maybe on bosses, if they don’t move and they’re kept still for 20 seconds. Let alone doing 2k per hit without QC (did you even bother calculating how much magic attack would be needed to do so, even after maxing its damage attribute? …guess not; hail’s damage per hit isn’t that high, you know).

At least take frost cloud for such an example. But we already know that skill is genuinely strong, and i wouldn’t have been surprised if it got nerfed either (indeed, i expected something more impactful of that target/AoE ratio chance).

You’re right about that, apart from some rare exception (like cyclone, since that gets an higher duration per level). That’s definitely an advantage compared to concentration, as the latter is added at the end of the damage formula.

Having a single usable attack spell though the first three circles didn’t seem to be a problem to you, though. How amusing. And now you even get a good attack buff, and at the first rank nevertheless. Guess they’re going for the wizard model, rather than nerfing it.
And yeah, i was the one saying that swordman c3 was bad, because i recognized that swordmen needed some buff to be used. Whereas you were saying they weren’t terrible and that wizards are the ones that needed a nerf.
And guess what, they buffed swordman and didn’t nerf wizard.

STR and DEX. And you can get those by equipments as well (or by buffs, either - Monstance alone gives 30% more dex after all). But sure, it doesn’t scale from the weapon, since it’s given as a flat bonus instead. They’re indeed designed in a different way.

The 50% magic attack bonus of a rank 3 isn’t the same of the 50% of a rank 7 either, though. There isn’t much point in stating so.

Anyway, the discussion has gotten kinda stale. If they wanted to do nerfs, i would have expected them in this patch, and yet they didn’t happen. On top of that, we’re always the same four people discussing, and we already know our opinions differ. I guess i’ll end it here.

#561

My bad again, let see, level 250 wizard, 400 INT (that leaves 150 or so CON, fair?) and 400 m.atk rod (+10 superior corona, fair?)

That gives 250 + 400 + 400 = 1050 base m.atk
Hail skill give +350 per hit = 1400

You want to reach 2k, with 50% attribute each tick will be 2100

That’s not even including stuff like 100 m.atk from head gears, 2x wizard bracelet, 3x blue gem, and the bunch of magic amp you get from INT

Yeah, wait a day and see the rage on KR forum

This is a bit far-fetched, but the only way for the new concentrate buff to be equivalent or better than QC is probably at rank 10, where you have more than 1k of STR and a lot more multi hit.

But right now, it’s just barely enough to keep swordman alive.

#562

A maxed hail does 309 per hit, actually, not 350. So it will be slightly lower. But apart from being obnoxiously costly between the weapon and the attribute, it’s feasible.
Anyway, i agree that right now QC scales better due to how it work (namely, as a percentage instead of a flat addition) and Concentrate could be modified in those regard too (or they could give a bit of melee physical bonus % bonus to gung-ho, for example). But it’s still a good first step, in my opinion.

#563

INT does not give magic amp, only matk.

Also, attributes/quick cast attribute apply after mdef, so your damage will vary a lot against a target with high mdef, contrary to popular belief.

Against lvl 240 Blue Cronewt for example:

360 MDEF

In order to hit 2k+ per hit on Hail without QC attribute, with 50% attributes, you would need roughly 1343~ matk. 1190 if you include 153 fire damage from Arde.

Against a World Boss like lvl 275 Rexipher for example:

874 MDEF

In order to hit 2k+ per hit, you would need 1857~ matk, 1704 with Arde.

#564

Nerfing is almost always BAD. It’s supposed to be ok on situations with a extremely OP skill or build, and situations where the class doesn’t work as was meant to be.

Quick Cast is not only OK but it is fundamental in useful wizard build. So stop the crap of nerfing everything.

Developers shouldn’t nerf thing based on peoples demands.

If IMC nerf QC i will quit, because that would be stupid. Cryomancer had a op CC and i don’t have cryo in my build, i never complained about it, it’s not my problem, and if i don’t like my build i could make that “op” one.

People should accept how things are and not be whining about others builds and skills to feel better themselves about what they do not have.

If a game developer change my character, waste my time and my money based on these kind of people arguing, then i will drop the game. Easy as that.

1 Like